Mental imagery as non-physical experience

[AgnosticBoy]

On another thread, I argued that mental imagery is nonphysical in that it lacks physical characteristics. Some materialists disagreed offering nothing more than a future promise that we'll discover how they're "purely physical". Here's one description of a type of mental imagery:

A hallucination is a perception in the absence of external stimulus that has qualities of real perception. Hallucinations are vivid, substantial, and are perceived to be located in external objective space. They are distinguishable from these related phenomena: dreaming, which does not involve wakefulness; illusion, which involves distorted or misinterpreted real perception; imagery, which does not mimic real perception and is under voluntary control; and pseudohallucination, which does not mimic real perception, but is not under voluntary control.[1] Hallucinations also differ from "delusional perceptions", in which a correctly sensed and interpreted stimulus (i.e., a real perception) is given some additional (and typically absurd) significance.

Hallucinations can occur in any sensory modality—visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory, tactile, proprioceptive, equilibrioceptive, nociceptive, thermoceptive and chronoceptive

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucination

My view is that the perception of mental images constitutes an experience of something non-physical. For those who think otherwise, please do the following:

Explain how or why the experience of hallucinations is physical or of something physical.

[Divine Insight]

Please explain how or why the experience of hallucinations are physical.

Are hallucinations associated with brain activity?

If so, then clearly they are linked to physical activity.

Electrical activity occurring within the brain is a physical event.

So I don't see how you can say that any human experience is "non-physical".

[AgnosticBoy]

Please explain how or why the experience of hallucinations are physical.

Are hallucinations associated with brain activity?

If so, then clearly they are linked to physical activity.

Electrical activity occurring within the brain is a physical event.

So I don't see how you can say that any human experience is "non-physical".

Brain activity is involved in hallucinations but my point speaks to the experience itself. If I look at the moon, then that certainly involves more than just brain activity since the experience also involves the moon, visual perception of it, etc. If I experience something generated by my mind, like a hallucination, then how is any part of that hallucination (the experience) physical when it does not really exist in physical space?

[Divine Insight]

Please explain how or why the experience of hallucinations are physical.

Are hallucinations associated with brain activity?

If so, then clearly they are linked to physical activity.

Electrical activity occurring within the brain is a physical event.

So I don't see how you can say that any human experience is "non-physical".

Brain activity is involved in hallucinations but my point speaks to the experience itself. If I look at the moon, then that certainly involves more than just brain activity since the experience also involves the moon, visual perception of it, etc. If I experience something generated by my mind, like a hallucination, then how is any part of that hallucination (the experience) physical when it does not really exist in physical space?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the experience".

The objects in the hallucination aren't anymore "physical" than the objects you imagine in a dream or even a daydream.

The objects your brain is imagining seeing don't need to be physical objects.

When you look at the moon and "see" the moon in your mind, you aren't seeing the actual moon. What you are seeing is an image that is being created by electrical activity within your brain.

So when you have a dream or a hallucination it's really no different from looking at the moon. The only difference is that when you look at the moon the image is being constructed by electrical impulse that enter your brain from external sensors (i.e. your eyes). But after looking at the moon you can then close your eyes and imagine a picture of the moon in your mind. The picture isn't being generated by electrical activity from your eyes. It's being generated by electrical activity taking place solely within your brain. But that electrical activity is still a physical process.

The idea that we can "see" images by just thinking about them doesn't mean that there's no physics behind that process.

So I'm not understanding the problem you are having with this.

I can understand the question, "What exactly is it that is having this experience?"

That's an interesting question.

But I see no problem at all with the brain generating images from electrical activity taking place solely within the brain. And that seems to be what you are concerned with. I just don't see where this is a problem at all.

[Bust Nak]

Explain how or why the experience of hallucinations is physical or of something physical.

That's easy. Experience of hallucinations, like all experiences are physical or of something physical because it is of the brain, and the brain is physical.

If I look at the moon, then that certainly involves more than just brain activity since the experience also involves the moon, visual perception of it, etc.

How is this different from a camera image of the moon that involves more than just the camera activity since the image also involves the moon, the film and the lens, etc? Are you going to say photos, digital or otherwise do not really exist in physical space?

[AgnosticBoy]

physical space?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the experience".

The objects in the hallucination aren't anymore "physical" than the objects you imagine in a dream or even a daydream.

The objects your brain is imagining seeing don't need to be physical objects.

When you look at the moon and "see" the moon in your mind, you aren't seeing the actual moon. What you are seeing is an image that is being created by electrical activity within your brain.

So when you have a dream or a hallucination it's really no different from looking at the moon. The only difference is that when you look at the moon the image is being constructed by electrical impulse that enter your brain from external sensors (i.e. your eyes). But after looking at the moon you can then close your eyes and imagine a picture of the moon in your mind. The picture isn't being generated by electrical activity from your eyes. It's being generated by electrical activity taking place solely within your brain. But that electrical activity is still a physical process.

The idea that we can "see" images by just thinking about them doesn't mean that there's no physics behind that process.

So I'm not understanding the problem you are having with this.

I can understand the question, "What exactly is it that is having this experience?"

That's an interesting question.

But I see no problem at all with the brain generating images from electrical activity taking place solely within the brain. And that seems to be what you are concerned with. I just don't see where this is a problem at all.[/quote]
The materialist claim is that everything is "physical". You start off by explaing a physical process ie electrical signals and i assume you follow that logic tomages.

[AgnosticBoy]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the experience".

I emphasize the word "experience" because oftentimes materialists conclude that all aspects are physical just because some aspects are physical (e.g. electrical activity). Clearly, electrical activity (the physical process) does not equate to "experience" but rather leads to it or correlates with it.

The objects in the hallucination aren't anymore "physical" than the objects you imagine in a dream or even a daydream.

The objects your brain is imagining seeing don't need to be physical objects.

When you look at the moon and "see" the moon in your mind, you aren't seeing the actual moon. What you are seeing is an image that is being created by electrical activity within your brain.

I understand that the "image" would be what's being perceived instead of the actual physical object. But the thing is "images" can be physical, as well. My point is simply that mental images share some of the same qualities as physical images except that they don't exist. This is the experience, anything short of that simply ignores a common every day experience.

[AgnosticBoy]

Explain how or why the experience of hallucinations is physical or of something physical.

That's easy. Experience of hallucinations, like all experiences are physical or of something physical because it is of the brain, and the brain is physical.

I can observe the brain, but I can't observe mental images. This is a very clear/simple difference so there's something wrong with your logic.

If I look at the moon, then that certainly involves more than just brain activity since the experience also involves the moon, visual perception of it, etc.

How is this different from a camera image of the moon that involves more than just the camera activity since the image also involves the moon, the film and the lens, etc? Are you going to say photos, digital or otherwise do not really exist in physical space?

Camera images are observable but mental images are not. Again, clearly the two are not of the same nature but yet we experience both! That's why I consider them different types of experiences, one physical and the other non-physical.

All I'm trying to get at is how can something non-physical (such as mental imagery - hallucinations) be explained in purely "physical" terms.

[Divine Insight]

My point is simply that mental images share some of the same qualities as physical images except that they don't exist.

This is where we disagree. They do exist. They exist as patterns of electrical activity within your brain.

In fact, that's actually how you see the moon too. You don't actually see the moon. What you experience is electrical activity within your brain that creates an experience of seeing the moon.

This doesn't explain precisely what it is that is having the experience of this electrical activity. But to say that the mental images don't physically exist is nonsense. All that needs to exist for mental images to be physical is electrical activity in the brain.

That moment you have that you have a physical phenomenon occurring when mental images are experienced.

So as far as I can see your concern is your own personal problem with understanding that electrical patterns in the brain are physical events.

Your claim that mental images are not associated with anything physical is an unwarranted claim on your part. You are making a claim that you haven't demonstrated to be true.

Now if you want to ask precisely what it is that is having the experience of all this electrical activity, I'll be the first to agree that this is indeed an interesting mystery.

But to claim that mental images are "non-physical" is simply nonsense. There is no evidence to support that claim. In fact, there is plenty of evidence to the contrary (i.e. electrical activity within the brain) <--- That's physical.

[AgnosticBoy]

My point is simply that mental images share some of the same qualities as physical images except that they don't exist.

This is where we disagree. They do exist. They exist as patterns of electrical activity within your brain.

In fact, that's actually how you see the moon too. You don't actually see the moon. What you experience is electrical activity within your brain that creates an experience of seeing the moon.

This doesn't explain precisely what it is that is having the experience of this electrical activity. But to say that the mental images don't physically exist is nonsense. All that needs to exist for mental images to be physical is electrical activity in the brain.

That moment you have that you have a physical phenomenon occurring when mental images are experienced.

So as far as I can see your concern is your own personal problem with understanding that electrical patterns in the brain are physical events.

Your claim that mental images are not associated with anything physical is an unwarranted claim on your part. You are making a claim that you haven't demonstrated to be true.

Now if you want to ask precisely what it is that is having the experience of all this electrical activity, I'll be the first to agree that this is indeed an interesting mystery.

But to claim that mental images are "non-physical" is simply nonsense. There is no evidence to support that claim. In fact, there is plenty of evidence to the contrary (i.e. electrical activity within the brain) <--- That's physical.

Electrical activity is observable. Images, if they're physical, are also supposed to be observable. Again, I'm not talking about seeing the moon in our head, but rather being able to observe the "image" just as all can objectively observe a camera or tv image. You've failed to show how electrical activity gives rise to images when NO screen or other physical medium exist to actually view mental images. NO computer does this! We use consciousness, another nonphysical feature, to perceive mental images.