Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's fall

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2Dbunk
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Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's fall

Post #1

Post by 2Dbunk »

Are Christian apologies in order for today's state of American Democracy
Edward Gibbon in his “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire� (1776) hints that Constantine’s elevation of Christianity in the 4th century of Rome aided in the decline of that civilization.
"The theologian may indulge the pleasing task of describing Religion as she descended from Heaven, arrayed in her native purity. A more melancholy duty is imposed on the historian. He must discover the inevitable mixture of error and corruption which she contracted in a long residence upon Earth, among a weak and degenerate race of beings."

"... life is the great object of religion, we may hear without surprise or scandal that the introduction, or least the abuse, of Christianity had some influence on the decline and fall of the Roman empire. The clergy successfully preached the doctrines of patience and pusillanimity; the active virtues of society were discouraged; and the last remains of military spirit were buried in the cloister. A large portion of public and private wealth were consecrated to the specious demands of charity and devotion, and the soldiers' pay was lavished on the useless multitudes of both sexes who could only plead the merits of abstinence and chastity. Faith, zeal, curiosity, and more earthly passions of malice and ambition kindled the flame of theological factions, whose conflicts were sometimes bloody and always implacable; the attention of the emperors was diverted from camps to synods; the Roman world was oppressed by a new species of tyranny, and the persecuted sects became the secret enemies of the country."

The above passages are open to being contrasted with a previous, pagan, situation where "The various modes of worship which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people, as equally true; by the philosopher; as equally false; and by the magistrate, as equally useful." Gibbon suggests that "Toleration produced not only a mutual indulgence, but even religious concord."

Two further volumes of the Decline and Fall, which bring to an end the period of the Western Empire (to about AD 480) appeared in April 1781 and these also sold well.
Gibbon summed up the Fall of the Roman Empire in the west as "the triumph of barbarism and religion!!!" from: age-of-the-sage.org
Compare this with today’s fall of American Democracy. The last truly great presidents that our nation has had are Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower. That leaves us a hiatus of more than half-of a century of mediocrity, the latter end of which has been the dismal parade of wannabes tilting for the office as the least dismal alternative. Why? In the last half century the religion card has been played more and more proving the emotional gullibility and ignorance of the masses.

Today, religion is a necessity for the office – but not just any religion. Protestant Christianity is preferred but Catholics are somewhat tolerated. Jews and Muslims need not apply, including all of the eastern “cults.� Atheists, since they are not banned from our shores, are still held in even less esteem. Again, why? Most if not every religious person is convinced that all other religions are dangerous, unholy cults; most Americans are of some form of nearly 40,000 varieties of Protestantism. Make any sense? Sure: “We are a Christiun nation – Atheists are evil ‘cause they don’t believe in God.�

I truly believe that Democracy is floundering because of the singular inanity of requiring Christianity as a pre-requisite for the office of the President. Look at today’s candidates: both professing deep religious faith (Christian of course) yet calling each other crooks and liars (and to a large intent, they are both right). Speaking as an Atheist, I KNOW my wife would be morally MUCH MORE SUPERIOR to either of them (she wouldn’t know the ins and outs of government like Hillary does nor the tax laws and their loopholes as Donald does).

I say morally because to be an atheist one must confront the god notion – a very brave and honest thing to do (honest in that my wife’s and my soul is on the block so to speak – we refuse to live a lie that “God� has control or can control our lives). For 17 years I have never caught her in a lie, nor has she found me in a lie (and we play board games every night). We do not lie or take advantage of our neighbors and our friends.

In short and in conclusion I think for the Democratic process to REALLY SUCCEED, THE RELIGION CARD MUST BE ELIMINATED FROM THE ELECTORAL DECK!!! Most of the founding fathers had no problem with the likes of Thomas Paine, as well as the free thinking of Madison and Jefferson, all stellar contributors to our founding. Let’s not sully it now so that we may continue in their spirit.

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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

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Post by Divine Insight »

2Dbunk wrote: Compare this with today’s fall of American Democracy.
It hasn't fallen yet! But it might fall in a few days.

If the democrats win and the Obama Legacy continues Democracy will survive for at least another four years. Hopefully far more than that.

Democracy will only fall if Trump gets in with his alt-right extremists who will take over the country ignoring the U.S. constitution and everything our democracy stands for.

I don't even think it would be fair to say that it would be a "Republican" administration. Save for Mike Pence who will most likely just be a marionette doll for Trump I don't see where there will be too many republicans in the Trump administration. Most will be Alt-Right extremists posing as republicans.

So our democracy hasn't fallen yet. But it's in danger of a possible fall very soon. Hopefully that won't happen.
2Dbunk wrote: In short and in conclusion I think for the Democratic process to REALLY SUCCEED, THE RELIGION CARD MUST BE ELIMINATED FROM THE ELECTORAL DECK!!!
I do agree with this. It was supposed to have been eliminated already by the U.S. constitution. But apparently that isn't guaranteed. Our nation is still vulnerable to a theocratic take-over. And strangely what it would most likely be would be something like the Alt-Right extremists taking over in the false name of religion.

Anyone who thinks that Trump represents valid Christian principles and moral values can't be paying attention.

Hillary, on the other hand, while professing to be a Protestant Methodist is not going to try to turn our free democracy into a religious theocracy. I don't think she bases her political decisions on theology, instead she actually respects the U.S. Constitution!

Hillary does not represent religious extremism. Donald Trump does, but in a very hypocritical away. He stands for Alt-Right extremism which is more like the KKK than Christianity. He represent religion gone sour.
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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

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2Dbunk wrote:

The last truly great presidents that our nation has had are Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower.
I hope your pessimism is unfounded. America certainly sends out a message of democracy. JFK enjoys a good press and I would have thought he merits inclusion but perhaps a prophet is never recognised in his own land and he shares the same fate as Maggie Thatcher - hated at home and respected abroad.

It is my belief that as Christianity utters her last prayers Islam in the ascendant will repeat all Christianity's horrors and errors. Europe will become Islamic by virtue of the birthrate among our new guests and if we want to see what that means we can glance at Iran and Saudi Arabia where they still behead sinful ladies.

Rome fell because she adopted multiculturalism, the decadence of her conquered Eastern and African nations and yes, her soldiers lost their hardness, just as is happening in the West, where soldiers who are a tad harsh are imprisoned (at least here in Britain.) Caesar cut the hands off his foes which made it hard for them to hold swords again. We pay our enemies compensation for hurt feelings.

Democracy is certainly threatened by religion, but not Christianity this time. That is a dying flame.

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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by 2Dbunk]

World Powers come and go, there is as scripture says, nothing new under the sun. Jehovah's Witnesses however believe that the bible identifies the Anglo-American world power as the last of the great powers and that it will fall only to God's kingdom (a theocracy), so for now, it seems safe to say that America as a world power will remain. For at least today. Tomorrow will have its own surprises.

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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

Post #5

Post by 2Dbunk »

[Replying to post 3 by marco]
2Dbunk wrote:

The last truly great presidents that our nation has had are Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower.

I hope your pessimism is unfounded. America certainly sends out a message of democracy. JFK enjoys a good press and I would have thought he merits inclusion but perhaps a prophet is never recognised in his own land and he shares the same fate as Maggie Thatcher - hated at home and respected abroad.
I thought long and hard about including JFK. Certainly he radiated hope and optimism, more so than IKE or Truman. But to include his three years of office meant that Republicans would screech "Reagan was great" and should have been included. His eight years could not be considered great because he was a conflict of terms, sort of like the two Bush presidents. Yes, he brought down the Wall but that was inevitable, just as Trump's wall (should he waste our resources to build it if he becomes president) will eventually come down.

But that is not the point. DI believes the fall will be accomplished with Trump being elected. Very much of what he says is IMO true. Hillary, with all her baggage, will steady the ship for another four years. Never one for the status quo, I yearn for it in this election season. I fear what this nation will become otherwise.

Marco, I've always been an optimist. I could never see the underside of something laying in the street. But that underside is now blaring as iridescent as Hitler's early to mid 20th century rhetoric. Hate in this country is now rampant -- those Christians for Trump are indeed an amalgam of the KKK and un-thinking populism.
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Post #6

Post by FinalEnigma »

Doesn't Bernie Sander's tremendous success, and nearly winning the democratic primary (in which case he almost certainly would have become president) show that you do not have to be Christian to be a legitimate candidate? At least in the democratic party. I concede that a non-christian republican would be a non-starter.

Bernie Sanders is somewhere between Jewish and atheist.
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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

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Post by 1213 »

Divine Insight wrote: ...Democracy will only fall if Trump gets in with his alt-right extremists who will take over the country ignoring the U.S. constitution and everything our democracy stands for. ...
Isn’t it Clinton who is against the constitution and for example denouncing second amendment? Rulers that want to take ability from people to defend themselves from government are in my opinion far more dangerous than Trump.

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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

Post #8

Post by Divine Insight »

1213 wrote:
Divine Insight wrote: ...Democracy will only fall if Trump gets in with his alt-right extremists who will take over the country ignoring the U.S. constitution and everything our democracy stands for. ...
Isn’t it Clinton who is against the constitution and for example denouncing second amendment? Rulers that want to take ability from people to defend themselves from government are in my opinion far more dangerous than Trump.
It's a lie of the Trump campaign that Hillary wants to abolish the second amendment. All she wants to do is keep weapons out of the hands of the criminally insane.

Besides, you only have the right to bear arms. You don't have the right to shoot government authorities. So anyone who talks about using their guns to defend themselves against the government should have their guns taken away. That kind of talk should be sufficient evidence that the person is criminally insane and a threat to our peaceful democracy.
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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

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Post by FinalEnigma »

Divine Insight wrote:
1213 wrote:
Divine Insight wrote: ...Democracy will only fall if Trump gets in with his alt-right extremists who will take over the country ignoring the U.S. constitution and everything our democracy stands for. ...
Isn’t it Clinton who is against the constitution and for example denouncing second amendment? Rulers that want to take ability from people to defend themselves from government are in my opinion far more dangerous than Trump.
It's a lie of the Trump campaign that Hillary wants to abolish the second amendment. All she wants to do is keep weapons out of the hands of the criminally insane.

Besides, you only have the right to bear arms. You don't have the right to shoot government authorities. So anyone who talks about using their guns to defend themselves against the government should have their guns taken away. That kind of talk should be sufficient evidence that the person is criminally insane and a threat to our peaceful democracy.
I would further point out that if you want to have guns to defend yourself from the government, you are vastly overestimating your ability to shoot down drone bombers and take out tanks with an AR-15.
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Post #10

Post by tfvespasianus »

I think the Gibbon’s thesis has been rightfully criticized by many historians. Personally, even as one that isn’t prone to be a champion of religion, I think his interpretation is tendentious and colored by his intellectual disdain for Christianity. I think it’s more tenable to hold that Rome fell largely due to associated military overreach and fiscal problems. For a long time during the height of Empire, Rome was able to assimilate certain numbers of its enormous military force with land from conquered territories. However, the Empire became sclerotic and riven with dissension from within and pressure from without during the 4th century (though it was having serious difficulty prior to this time). To pin the blame on Christianity (rather than overreach) strikes me as post hoc.

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