Evolutionary ignorance.

[DanieltheDragon]

Most creationists or intelligent design folks can not describe evolution nor do they have a basic understanding of evolution. Part of this is education where they were not taught evolution.

There are plenty of resources available, here is one such free course

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/bio ... -selection

Why do creationists avoid learning about evolution?

Is there a fear that if they take the time to be a good student and learn about it, it will make sense?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 39 by theStudent]



[center]Fallacious Religious Reasoning:
Classic example of the argument from ignorance.
Part One[/center]

I'm sorry B, I know you don't like this, but I just gotta lol. It's funny. LOL.

Yeah, not a lot of people like being laughed at, for some reason.
But you just "had to".

A pity, that.
It truly degrades your credibility.

How many times has the Bible changed? Zero.

Correction:

Bible scholars have NO idea how many iterations the "Bible" has gone through.

"We have only error ridden copies, and the vast majority of these are centuries removed from the originals and different from them, evidently, in thousands of ways."
- Bart Erhman, Misquoting Jesus

Apparently those "ancient story writers" know what you don't understand today, or are now beginning to understand, or are ignoring.

Apparently, you pretend to know what "ancient story writers" actually knew about nature. You must be imagining that "ancient story writers" knew what modern people do. They did not.

They knew their stories.
That's all that they left us.
Stories.

Question:
Did scientists know the earth would be such a mess in the 20th century?
Those "ancient story tellers" knew.

You present some wild invention, and a rhetorical question that doesn't make sense.

Are you saying that scientists from TODAY don't know the problems facing the world TODAY? Or are you asking if scientists from today went back in time and didn't predict 20th century problems?

I'm sure that you believe that these "ancient story writers" predicted the future, and did so accurately. Proving the truth of that idea is going to be a bit more of a challenge to convince OUTSIDERS to your faith, than simply stating it. What we can PLAINLY see is that you are convinced. What we CANNOT plainly see are any good reasons. The reasons you supply are far from convincing.

But you don't seem to care about our opinions about your reasoning.
Instead, you laugh at the mere idea that other people don't believe the same things that you do. Your derision is not convincing, my friend.

Question:
Do scientists know the solution?
Those "ancient story tellers" do.

This is not even remotely convincing.
Scientists don't happen to have a solutions for every problem.

And simply stating that "ancient story tellers do" isn't convincing, either.
From where I sit, your arguments are full of denialism, false facts and very flawed arguments. And you seem rather happy about that.

I don't see much in the way of you being able to be wrong.
And that doesn't add much to your credibility, either.

You just "know" the real truth and that's about it.
All the rest of us who don't agree with you are .... always wrong, apparently.

It would be WAY more convincing, for example, if you answered our quite pointed questions, instead of having to laugh at what we bother to write to you.

I think that your "lol" might have backfired.
It didn't help your case at all.

( but it's nice to see that you are having fun )

Also, in case you are like some who think that ancient people were backward, and we are more intelligent, I suggest you give that some more thought.

Intelligence has nothing to do with ignorance.
Ancient people simply knew less about nature than modern people.

But you claim otherwise, of course. In your argument, it seems that they knew much more than we do now. At least, that's what I gather what you are trying to say.

People in the past knew more than we do now.
Amazing idea.
It's very romantic.

Nazca Lines: Mysterious Geoglyphs in Peru

This is another wild theory that doesn't prove anything.
Mysteries are mysterious.. they don't prove that your beliefs are true.

It's as if Nazca lines prove that your god is real or any other wild theory.
They don't.

They prove that some people will say just about anything to help them keep believing what they do. But this kind of reasoning is not at all convincing.

Ignorance is NOT knowledge, so even if all the scientists in the world do not KNOW everything, it does NOTHING to prove that other people did, or that a god hypothesis has any merit.

It's just the quite fallacious argument from ignorance.
A classic case, really.

Text book material.


___________

Questions:

• 1. You present a lot of scientific hypotheses that have fallen by the wayside. Why do you think this is a problem for science?
  2. Conversely, why do you think that a "science" book that NEVER changes would be a good one at all?
  3. You mention that "ancient story writers" somehow KNEW that there might be some problems in the 20th century. What a fantastic claim. What is your evidence?
  4. How many changes has the Bible gone through before the Church decided on the final version? How many after?
  5. Most Bible scholars say that they were anonymously written by who knows who for who knows what purpose at who knows what time, exactly.Who were these "ancient story writers"?
  6. You talk about "knowing a solution" to 20th century problems. What are these solutions?
  7. What kind of guarantee do you have to offer that any of these so called "solutions" would work?
  8. Your initial "lol" is indicative of derision. Are you quite sure that your laughing at people's ideas is an honest debate tactic that will convince people that your position is sound?
  9. And finally the argument from ignorance. Are you saying that since science doesn't know something, that it proves any religious theory, including yours?

___________

[benchwarmer]

I'm sorry B, I know you don't like this, but I just gotta lol. It's funny. LOL.

I'm truly curious what it is you are LOLing about. The fact that science is not afraid to update it's theories when new data or better understanding presents itself? The fact that the scientific process is self correcting and can't be let astray easily by whims, fanciful stories, or just plain crackpot theories?

You're busy making my argument for me, I'm really not sure what all the LOL is about.

How many times has the Bible changed? Zero.

Really? And you say I don't understand the Bible? What did the Bible look like at the time of Jesus? What did it look like 100 years later? How about 200 years later? 325 years later?

Let's say for a moment that none of the current writings we have in the modern Bible have changed since they were written. How does that help your case? Every time we discover something else in the Bible that doesn't line up with reality you're stuck. Science adds the new knowledge and moves on.

Apparently those "ancient story writers" know what you don't understand today, or are now beginning to understand, or are ignoring.

The Universe Has Probably Hosted Many Alien Civilizations: Study
Well, find them then. What's taking you guys so long?
Really B, how much do they know? What do they know that those ancient writers don't? Tsh tsh. Such little, and limited knowledge, and they are puffed up enough to fly in the face of reason.

I really wonder why you think presenting something that we don't know yet somehow makes science look bad. You really don't get it do you? It's ok to say we don't know something. No need to gather up all the things we don't know and lump it under God-did-it.

Question:
Did scientists know the earth would be such a mess in the 20th century?
Those "ancient story tellers" knew.

Which scientists? Define mess. In my opinion the world was in many ways in a bigger mess thousands of years ago. Slavery was everywhere, people were sacrificing animals and other people to their magic, invisible gods, it was in many ways a horror show everywhere. We have many problems still, but we've at least curtailed some of the ridiculous stuff that went on.

Question:
Do scientists know the solution?
Those "ancient story tellers" do.

Solution to what? The ambiguous 'mess' you mentioned? Define mess and we'll discuss it I guess.

Also, in case you are like some who think that ancient people were backward, and we are more intelligent, I suggest you give that some more thought.
Nazca Lines: Mysterious Geoglyphs in Peru

Intelligence and knowledge are two very different things. I have no clue how intelligent the ancients were who wrote the Bible stories, likely about the same as we are today I would guess. Unless you have standard IQ data from then and now, you don't know either. As for knowledge, we clearly have more today. I can google any subject I can think of and tap into humanities knowledge base with a few clicks. It's unprecedented the amount of knowledge we have access to today. The ancients traded stories over the camp fire and perhaps wrote some stuff down. Those who were lucky enough to be able to read could access whatever was physically available. Even the knowledge that humanity had as a collective thousands of years ago was not widely available and thus could not be easily digested and expanded upon. Today we trade ideas, spark new research, and document so much more quickly and easily.

In short, all you've done is your usual 'link storm' which doesn't help your case. If anything, you've helped mine. Thanks!

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 42 by benchwarmer]

I'm truly curious what it is you are LOLing about. The fact that science is not afraid to update it's theories when new data or better understanding presents itself? The fact that the scientific process is self correcting and can't be let astray easily by whims, fanciful stories, or just plain crackpot theories?

You're busy making my argument for me, I'm really not sure what all the LOL is about.

Yet you take the word of ancient story writers who clearly don't understand what we understand today [Bold font mine].

How many times has the Bible changed? Zero.
Apparently those "ancient story writers" know what you don't understand today, or are now beginning to understand, or are ignoring.

LOL

Every time we discover something else in the Bible that doesn't line up with reality you're stuck. Science adds the new knowledge and moves on.

Help me on this one, because you lost me here.
Perhaps an example might help.

Which scientists? Define mess. In my opinion the world was in many ways in a bigger mess thousands of years ago. Slavery was everywhere, people were sacrificing animals and other people to their magic, invisible gods, it was in many ways a horror show everywhere. We have many problems still, but we've at least curtailed some of the ridiculous stuff that went on.

Don't make me laugh B. I find this absurd.
World War I - The total number of military and civilian casualties in World War I was more than 38 million: there were over 17 million deaths and 20 million wounded, ranking it among the deadliest conflicts in human history.
World War II - World War II was the deadliest military conflict in history in absolute terms of total dead. Over 60 million people were killed, which was about 3% of the 1940 world population (est. 2.3 billion).
Do the math.
List of wars by death toll
War and Peace after 1945 There is hope...

List of natural disasters by death toll
Necrometrics - Estimated Totals for the Entire 20th Century

Overdose Death Rates - 2001-2014
Smoking statistics - Illness and death - 2016
Statistics of Addiction in America [only]

Causes of death statistics
World Poverty

This is just about 50% of the list.

Solution to what? The ambiguous 'mess' you mentioned? Define mess and we'll discuss it I guess.

See above.

I have no clue how intelligent the ancients were who wrote the Bible stories,

Thank you. 'nuff said.

In short, all you've done is your usual 'link storm' which doesn't help your case. If anything, you've helped mine. Thanks!

Yes. I knew you needed help.
You're welcomed.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 43 by theStudent]

Help me on this one, because you lost me here.
Perhaps an example might help.

It's the process of self-correction. The Bible says in at least one point that illnesses are caused by demonic possession. Given that you say the Bible has never changed, and that you say this is a strength of the Bible, this means that what the Bible says goes for all time.
Except, we know that demonic possession isn't true. We know for a fact about germs, bacteria and virii. Medical doctors were able to update their knowledge base over the centuries. Instead of sticking to old methods that quite frankly didn't work, they changed.
For now until the end of time, you are stuck with a Bible that proclaims that illnesses are caused by demonic possession, while medical doctors the world over know for a fact that that isn't true. Your Bible can't correct itself, you don't allow for it. Any time the Bible gets something wrong, you quite simply don't allow for the new information to replace the old incorrect information.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 42 by benchwarmer]

I'm truly curious what it is you are LOLing about. The fact that science is not afraid to update it's theories when new data or better understanding presents itself? The fact that the scientific process is self correcting and can't be let astray easily by whims, fanciful stories, or just plain crackpot theories?

You're busy making my argument for me, I'm really not sure what all the LOL is about.

Yet you take the word of ancient story writers who clearly don't understand what we understand today [Bold font mine].

How many times has the Bible changed? Zero.
Apparently those "ancient story writers" know what you don't understand today, or are now beginning to understand, or are ignoring.

LOL

That's your argument? Bold some stuff, ignore my counter points, and make a bigger LOL? As long as you get it I guess.

Every time we discover something else in the Bible that doesn't line up with reality you're stuck. Science adds the new knowledge and moves on.

Help me on this one, because you lost me here.
Perhaps an example might help.

Sure:

From www.biblegateway.com

Matthew 4:8New International Version (NIV)

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.

The earth is not flat, the above is not possible. Oops.

Which scientists? Define mess. In my opinion the world was in many ways in a bigger mess thousands of years ago. Slavery was everywhere, people were sacrificing animals and other people to their magic, invisible gods, it was in many ways a horror show everywhere. We have many problems still, but we've at least curtailed some of the ridiculous stuff that went on.

Don't make me laugh B. I find this absurd.

[pile of links to events that cause death]

I'm not sure what you are getting at. There was war and natural disasters at the time of the Bible writers. Why didn't they solve these problems if they had the answers? Or perhaps you want God to solve it like it's written in the Bible?

www.biblegateway.com

Genesis 6:17New International Version (NIV)

17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.

How well did that work out?

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 42 by benchwarmer]

I'm truly curious what it is you are LOLing about. The fact that science is not afraid to update it's theories when new data or better understanding presents itself? The fact that the scientific process is self correcting and can't be let astray easily by whims, fanciful stories, or just plain crackpot theories?

You're busy making my argument for me, I'm really not sure what all the LOL is about.

Yet you take the word of ancient story writers who clearly don't understand what we understand today [Bold font mine].

How many times has the Bible changed? Zero.
Apparently those "ancient story writers" know what you don't understand today, or are now beginning to understand, or are ignoring.

LOL

That's your argument? Bold some stuff, ignore my counter points, and make a bigger LOL? As long as you get it I guess.

Every time we discover something else in the Bible that doesn't line up with reality you're stuck. Science adds the new knowledge and moves on.

Help me on this one, because you lost me here.
Perhaps an example might help.

Sure:

From www.biblegateway.com

Matthew 4:8New International Version (NIV)

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.

The earth is not flat, the above is not possible. Oops.

Which scientists? Define mess. In my opinion the world was in many ways in a bigger mess thousands of years ago. Slavery was everywhere, people were sacrificing animals and other people to their magic, invisible gods, it was in many ways a horror show everywhere. We have many problems still, but we've at least curtailed some of the ridiculous stuff that went on.

Don't make me laugh B. I find this absurd.

[pile of links to events that cause death]

I'm not sure what you are getting at. There was war and natural disasters at the time of the Bible writers. Why didn't they solve these problems if they had the answers? Or perhaps you want God to solve it like it's written in the Bible?

www.biblegateway.com

Genesis 6:17New International Version (NIV)

17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.

How well did that work out?

[pile of links to events that cause death]

I'm not sure what you are getting at. There was war and natural disasters at the time of the Bible writers. Why didn't they solve these problems if they had the answers? Or perhaps you want God to solve it like it's written in the Bible?

This entire post makes no sense at all.

In my opinion the world was in many ways in a bigger mess thousands of years ago. Slavery was everywhere, people were sacrificing animals and other people to their magic, invisible gods, it was in many ways a horror show everywhere. We have many problems still, but we've at least curtailed some of the ridiculous stuff that went on.

I gave you a non-exhaustive list against your absurd claim...
Now you are talking about

Why didn't they solve these problems if they had the answers? Or perhaps you want God to solve it like it's written in the Bible?

What does that have to do with conditions being worst now than in the past

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 43 by theStudent]

Help me on this one, because you lost me here.
Perhaps an example might help.

It's the process of self-correction. The Bible says in at least one point that illnesses are caused by demonic possession. Given that you say the Bible has never changed, and that you say this is a strength of the Bible, this means that what the Bible says goes for all time.
Except, we know that demonic possession isn't true. We know for a fact about germs, bacteria and virii. Medical doctors were able to update their knowledge base over the centuries. Instead of sticking to old methods that quite frankly didn't work, they changed.
For now until the end of time, you are stuck with a Bible that proclaims that illnesses are caused by demonic possession, while medical doctors the world over know for a fact that that isn't true. Your Bible can't correct itself, you don't allow for it. Any time the Bible gets something wrong, you quite simply don't allow for the new information to replace the old incorrect information.

I'm hearing this for the first time.

The Bible says in at least one point that illnesses are caused by demonic possession.

Could you show me that point in scripture.

[benchwarmer]

The Bible says in at least one point that illnesses are caused by demonic possession.

Could you show me that point in scripture.

As always, I'm happy to help you with scripture.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

Jesus Heals a Crippled Woman on the Sabbath

10 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues, 11 and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. 12 When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.� 13 Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.

I find this debate tactic tiring honestly. Whenever anyone makes a point that solidly refutes your argument, you claim you've never seen it and need it to be shown to you. Yet you clearly know your Bible very well and must have heard these arguments before. Why not just jump right in and attempt to refute what you know we are talking about rather than playing like you don't know what we mean?

You're making us heathens look like Bible scholars

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 48 by benchwarmer]

I find this debate tactic tiring honestly. Whenever anyone makes a point that solidly refutes your argument, you claim you've never seen it and need it to be shown to you.

Spirit

πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, ChristÂ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind.

1. Spirit doesn't always mean demon, as in this case.
2. The ability of the supernatural to make someone sick is not unreal.
3. A human making another human sick, does not automatically make that human responsible for human sicknesses.

I just wonder when you will stop grabbing at straws, but I doubt it will end, since you have nothing with substance to prove the Bible wrong, nor prove the supernatural does not exist.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 49 by theStudent]

The ability of the supernatural to make someone sick is not unreal

There is no empirical evidence to suggest this is remotely true. I'll stick with what we do know. A doctor never saved a life looking for a ghost infection.