Why do Theists dominate the banishment list?

[Zzyzx]

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Why do Theists dominate the banishment list?

Theists predominate in the list of people who are banned for repeated rule infractions. For example, of the last ten people banned, seven or eight are Theists. http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 860481d25f

Why is this?

[Volbrigade]

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It was during the reading that strange phenomenon occurred -- lights coming on and going off by themselves, in two rooms (the one we were in, and the next one over).

WOW -- how compelling -- lights on and off -- without obvious explanation.

Most of us have probably observed lights going on and off without obvious explanation. The last time that happened at my place someone had hit a utility pole beside the highway causing a brief power interruption. A few seconds later, voila, the lights came back on as though by magic (or supernaturalism).

Did the interruption affect all of the lights in the house? Or just one or two or some, sequentially?

Another time a power glitch happened just as I was about to make a post challenging Theist claims (before I installed an uninterruptible power supply) and it was gone. . . Was the timing a coincidence or did invisible 'spirits' or 'gods' interfere with my posting? If the latter, they were rather short-sighted because I always compose in a word processor document and copy to Forum text box -- so it was only a momentary inconvenience.

Again -- was the power glitch confined to your computer? Or was it a surge, or other anomaly, that affected the entire house? Usually when the latter happens, I'll have to reset digital clocks, often in several rooms -- but not always all (?. I'm not an electrician, but I assume the reason lies with breakers, surge protection engineered into the house's electrical system, or used as a multiport adapter, etc.).

The event I refer to was remarkable because it was NOT like the sort of common power interruptions/outages/anomalies with which we are all so familiar. I asked my wife about the incident this evening at dinner. She, like me, can't remember precisely the exact sequence of events -- this happened at least 25 years ago -- but she rather matter of factly recounted "the lights came on and went back off, by themselves". Of course, if the whole house had gone dark, and then the lights came back on, you might say "the timing of that surge was strange", or coincidental. But the fact that it was selected lights, turning on and off in a sequential manner, in a house whose three occupants were seated at a table, away from the light switches... and the timing of the event...

that is the only reason I recount the tale here. Is there a "natural" explanation? Perhaps. But them nature itself is supernatural, as even any Wiccan will tell you.

But that is something mundane materialism is hopelessly blind to.

Note, I am not presenting either of the two incidents mentioned as "this is proof of the supernatural". I'm just mentioning them anecdotally, circumstantially, and suggesting that these sorts of phenomenon occur all the time. And while some have natural explanations -- some don't.

'Some don't' . . . Is that to say that if you or someone does not have a 'natural explanation' the event is supernatural?

Aw shucks -- should've saved my previous comment for here.

If I had not later seen evidence of the power pole incident, that power glitch would have been 'unexplained' (at least to me -- and perhaps others in the area). Right? Should I (or we) conclude it was supernaturally caused since we did not have an 'explanation'?

Most (all?) supernatural tales / claims / testimonials seem to rely on stories about events that supposedly have no 'natural explanation'. That lack of 'explanation' could well be due to the ignorance of observers / reporters.

Until fairly recently earthquakes were mysterious, without 'natural explanation' (and often attributed to gods). However, as human knowledge increased, the causes of earthquakes became known -- and no longer required 'Goddidit explanations'. Thus, the 'God of the Gaps' is shrinking as knowledge increases -- though many prefer to cling to ancient superstitions and 'explanations'.

Yes. We are learning more and more about God's creation, thanks to the modern science that was founded by those that had a firm faith in His ordained, and ordered, creation.

And what we are learning, at the frontier of every scientific discipline, is how our increasing scientific knowledge is coming into concert with what the Bible has said along -- that we exist in a subset of a "higher" reality ("Resurrections and hyperdimensions", anyone? ).

Many, many people have directly encountered this reality throughout our history; in many, many ways. I think the UFO/"alien visitation" phenomenon is part of the same framework; and I have no doubt the experiences I encountered are, as well.

As for "earthquakes" -- they are, indeed, natural phenomenon. Caused by incremental shifts in Earth's crust along tectonic plate fault lines, that were set in place in a matter of weeks during the Flood of Noah (pushing up mountain ranges in the process), and which continue the subduction process that was runaway at that time.

Have you noticed that we hear of them much more now, than previously in history? Not that there's an increased incidence of them (there may or may not be), but we now have the seismic and communications technology to hear of them more.

But be not alarmed -- this is but "the beginnings of sorrows..."

[Zzyzx]

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Most of us have probably observed lights going on and off without obvious explanation. The last time that happened at my place someone had hit a utility pole beside the highway causing a brief power interruption. A few seconds later, voila, the lights came back on as though by magic (or supernaturalism).

Did the interruption affect all of the lights in the house? Or just one or two or some, sequentially?

Let's see if we can figure that out. It involved a power pole being hit . . . and a resulting power glitch. That might indicate that all power to my property and adjoining acreage was off – which should include all lights in the house(s).

Other power glitches have occurred that involved only one circuit. Recently at a friend's business power to part of the building 'mysteriously' worked part of the time and not another time. The 'mystery' was solved when I replaced the circuit breaker. Perhaps I am supernatural.

Another time a power glitch happened just as I was about to make a post challenging Theist claims (before I installed an uninterruptible power supply) and it was gone. . . Was the timing a coincidence or did invisible 'spirits' or 'gods' interfere with my posting? If the latter, they were rather short-sighted because I always compose in a word processor document and copy to Forum text box -- so it was only a momentary inconvenience.

Again -- was the power glitch confined to your computer? Or was it a surge, or other anomaly, that affected the entire house? Usually when the latter happens, I'll have to reset digital clocks, often in several rooms -- but not always all (?. I'm not an electrician, but I assume the reason lies with breakers, surge protection engineered into the house's electrical system, or used as a multiport adapter, etc.).

Yes, there can be many potential causes for power outages generally or to restricted areas.

It's quite a stretch to make off-and-on lights seem supernatural, isn't it? Perhaps not for you personally, but perhaps convincing readers that unseen forces were (or 'may have been') involved.

The event I refer to was remarkable because it was NOT like the sort of common power interruptions/outages/anomalies with which we are all so familiar. I asked my wife about the incident this evening at dinner. She, like me, can't remember precisely the exact sequence of events -- this happened at least 25 years ago -- but she rather matter of factly recounted "the lights came on and went back off, by themselves". Of course, if the whole house had gone dark, and then the lights came back on, you might say "the timing of that surge was strange", or coincidental. But the fact that it was selected lights, turning on and off in a sequential manner, in a house whose three occupants were seated at a table, away from the light switches... and the timing of the event...

Then it may (must?) have been a supernatural event. Right? Maybe it was a ghost (holy or not).

Or maybe it had something to do with electrical wiring or apparatus.

A bunch of kids sitting around a campfire telling ghost stories may start hearing all sorts of strange things in the woods around them. People attending seances hear from dead people. Elvis fanatics 'see' him after he died. Must be supernatural forces involved.

that is the only reason I recount the tale here. Is there a "natural" explanation? Perhaps. But them nature itself is supernatural, as even any Wiccan will tell you.

I put no more stock in 'explanations' by Wicca than by Voodoo, Witch doctors, Faith healers, or Religions.

But that is something mundane materialism is hopelessly blind to.

Yes, 'materialism' (or real world investigating) is 'mundane' compared to fanciful tales concocted by the imagination.

Most (all?) supernatural tales / claims / testimonials seem to rely on stories about events that supposedly have no 'natural explanation'. That lack of 'explanation' could well be due to the ignorance of observers / reporters.

Until fairly recently earthquakes were mysterious, without 'natural explanation' (and often attributed to gods). However, as human knowledge increased, the causes of earthquakes became known -- and no longer required 'Goddidit explanations'. Thus, the 'God of the Gaps' is shrinking as knowledge increases -- though many prefer to cling to ancient superstitions and 'explanations'.

Yes. We are learning more and more about God's creation,

SOME of us are learning more about the real world we inhabit – while others prefer to speculate about supernatural entities and 'causes'.

thanks to the modern science that was founded by those that had a firm faith in His ordained, and ordered, creation.

Learning about the real world long predates belief in the Bible God – and has progressed in spite of frequent religious objections and obstructions.

Some religious people contribute(d) to scientific knowledge (for example, Gregor Mendel, an Austrian monk and abbot is known as the 'father of genetics'). However, his (their) scientific work was not religious in nature.

And what we are learning, at the frontier of every scientific discipline, is how our increasing scientific knowledge is coming into concert with what the Bible has said along

As one who has actually studied and taught sciences, I disagree.

-- that we exist in a subset of a "higher" reality ("Resurrections and hyperdimensions", anyone?)

Flights of fantasy anyone?

Many, many people have directly encountered this reality throughout our history; in many, many ways. I think the UFO/"alien visitation" phenomenon is part of the same framework; and I have no doubt the experiences I encountered are, as well.

Opinion noted.

As for "earthquakes" -- they are, indeed, natural phenomenon. Caused by incremental shifts in Earth's crust along tectonic plate fault lines,

SOME earthquakes are associated with crustal plate movement. Other earthquakes may be caused by volcanic eruptions, rockfalls, landslides, explosions, hydraulic fracturing (fracking) – and seismic waves from a large earthquake may trigger other earthquakes hundreds of miles away.

that were set in place in a matter of weeks during the Flood of Noah (pushing up mountain ranges in the process), and which continue the subduction process that was runaway at that time.

Is this presented as factual information based upon actual study of plate tectonics?

Have you noticed that we hear of them much more now, than previously in history? Not that there's an increased incidence of them (there may or may not be), but we now have the seismic and communications technology to hear of them more.

So what?

But be not alarmed -- this is but "the beginnings of sorrows..."

I am not alarmed by quotations that cannot / have not been shown to be anything more than fantasy or imagination (or much of anything else – not being timid or easily frightened). But, carry on.

[Volbrigade]

[Replying to post 209 by Zzyzx]

Volbrigade wrote:

And what we are learning, at the frontier of every scientific discipline, is how our increasing scientific knowledge is coming into concert with what the Bible has said along.

As one who has actually studied and taught sciences, I disagree.

Opinion noted.

Volbrigade wrote:

As for "earthquakes" -- they are, indeed, natural phenomenon. Caused by incremental shifts in Earth's crust along tectonic plate fault lines,

SOME earthquakes are associated with crustal plate movement. Other earthquakes may be caused by volcanic eruptions, rockfalls, landslides, explosions, hydraulic fracturing (fracking) – and seismic waves from a large earthquake may trigger other earthquakes hundreds of miles away.

In my opinion, this is the part of your post that has value. Your naturalistic explanations for the curious events in my account are marginal, at best, in that regard. We all know that lights go off and come back on by themselves, due to the vagaries of the wonderfully complex electrical systems that all we benefit from (and for which we are indebted to James Clerk Maxwell, a Creationist, for our current understanding of electro-magnetism -- http://creation.com/great-creation-scie ... rk-maxwell ). But when they come on, unassisted... during an exercise in the occult...?

Well, it got my attention. I think it's remarkable enough to remark upon.

Volbrigade wrote:

that were set in place in a matter of weeks during the Flood of Noah (pushing up mountain ranges in the process), and which continue the subduction process that was runaway at that time.

Is this presented as factual information based upon actual study of plate tectonics?

Yes.

Volbrigade wrote:

Have you noticed that we hear of them much more now, than previously in history? Not that there's an increased incidence of them (there may or may not be), but we now have the seismic and communications technology to hear of them more.

So what?

2,000 years ago, Jesus had a confidential briefing with His “inner circle� on the Mount of Olives. It is known as the “Olivet Discourse�. In it, He answers their questions as to what will be the sign of His coming back, in His resurrected, hyperdimensional state (my words, not theirs ).

He proceeds to list a number of eventualities that will occur prior to that event:

“you will hear of wars and rumors of wars.…nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.  All these are the beginning of sorrows.�

It is interesting that he frames the events with “you will hear�. Only in the last several decades — roughly coinciding with the re-emergence of the Jewish state of Israel — has it been possible for people to “hear� of events like earthquakes immediately.

Just part of the intricate fabric of circumstantial evidence of that for which is outside the domain of empirical proof. Like whether or not malignant spirits manifest during occult practices.

[Zzyzx]

.

As for "earthquakes" -- they are, indeed, natural phenomenon. Caused by incremental shifts in Earth's crust along tectonic plate fault lines,

SOME earthquakes are associated with crustal plate movement. Other earthquakes may be caused by volcanic eruptions, rockfalls, landslides, explosions, hydraulic fracturing (fracking) – and seismic waves from a large earthquake may trigger other earthquakes hundreds of miles away.

In my opinion, this is the part of your post that has value.

Thank you profusely.

Your naturalistic explanations for the curious events in my account are marginal, at best, in that regard. We all know that lights go off and come back on by themselves, due to the vagaries of the wonderfully complex electrical systems that all we benefit from (and for which we are indebted to James Clerk Maxwell, a Creationist, for our current understanding of electro-magnetism -- http://creation.com/great-creation-scie ... rk-maxwell ). But when they come on, unassisted... during an exercise in the occult...?

Of course, “if lights come on unassisted during an exercise in the occult� THAT is evidence supernaturalism was involved.

Readers are likely to be REALLY impressed with such testimonial evidence.

that were set in place in a matter of weeks during the Flood of Noah (pushing up mountain ranges in the process), and which continue the subduction process that was runaway at that time.

Is this presented as factual information based upon actual study of plate tectonics?

Yes.

Kindly supply readers with references, citations, URLs to support the contention that continental plate movement was 'Caused by incremental shifts in Earth's crust along tectonic plate fault lines, that were set in place in a matter of weeks during the Flood of Noah (pushing up mountain ranges in the process), and which continue the subduction process that was runaway at that time.�

“you will hear of wars and rumors of wars.…nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.�

A reasonably astute high school student can make those observations / predictions. Educated adults might be more specific. But if attributed to a religious icon they are PROFOUND.

It is interesting that he frames the events with “you will hear�. Only in the last several decades — roughly coinciding with the re-emergence of the Jewish state of Israel — has it been possible for people to “hear� of events like earthquakes immediately.

Is Jesus reported to have said 'hear immediately'?

Just part of the intricate fabric of circumstantial evidence of that for which is outside the domain of empirical proof. Like whether or not malignant spirits manifest during occult practices.

Yes, the 'intricate fabric of circumstantial evidence' such as lights 'mysteriously' turning on and / or off during an exercise in the occult (or ghost stories scaring kids around a campfire).

Very convincing?

Does that somehow explain (as per the OP) "Why do Theists dominate the banishment list?"

[Volbrigade]

.

As for "earthquakes" -- they are, indeed, natural phenomenon. Caused by incremental shifts in Earth's crust along tectonic plate fault lines,

SOME earthquakes are associated with crustal plate movement. Other earthquakes may be caused by volcanic eruptions, rockfalls, landslides, explosions, hydraulic fracturing (fracking) – and seismic waves from a large earthquake may trigger other earthquakes hundreds of miles away.

In my opinion, this is the part of your post that has value.

Thank you profusely.

You're more than welcome.

Your naturalistic explanations for the curious events in my account are marginal, at best, in that regard. We all know that lights go off and come back on by themselves, due to the vagaries of the wonderfully complex electrical systems that all we benefit from (and for which we are indebted to James Clerk Maxwell, a Creationist, for our current understanding of electro-magnetism -- http://creation.com/great-creation-scie ... rk-maxwell ). But when they come on, unassisted... during an exercise in the occult...?

Of course, “if lights come on unassisted during an exercise in the occult� THAT is evidence supernaturalism was involved.

Readers are likely to be REALLY impressed with such testimonial evidence.

That gladdens my heart to hear.

I wish there was more traffic on this thread, to hear it.

And I really wish posters would chime in with their own experiences of the uncanny. I know many people have experienced the kinds of events I have recounted.

that were set in place in a matter of weeks during the Flood of Noah (pushing up mountain ranges in the process), and which continue the subduction process that was runaway at that time.

Is this presented as factual information based upon actual study of plate tectonics?

Yes.

Kindly supply readers with references, citations, URLs to support the contention that continental plate movement was 'Caused by incremental shifts in Earth's crust along tectonic plate fault lines, that were set in place in a matter of weeks during the Flood of Noah (pushing up mountain ranges in the process), and which continue the subduction process that was runaway at that time.�

Your wish is my command.

http://creation.com/catastrophic-plate- ... esis-flood

http://creation.com/how-landscapes-reveal-noahs-flood

http://creation.com/flood-models-biblical-realism

https://creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter12.pdf

“you will hear of wars and rumors of wars.…nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.�

A reasonably astute high school student can make those observations / predictions. Educated adults might be more specific. But if attributed to a religious icon they are PROFOUND.

I don't think they had high school 2,000 years ago.

It is interesting that he frames the events with “you will hear�. Only in the last several decades — roughly coinciding with the re-emergence of the Jewish state of Israel — has it been possible for people to “hear� of events like earthquakes immediately.

Is Jesus reported to have said 'hear immediately'?

Just part of the intricate fabric of circumstantial evidence of that for which is outside the domain of empirical proof. Like whether or not malignant spirits manifest during occult practices.

Yes, the 'intricate fabric of circumstantial evidence' such as lights 'mysteriously' turning on and / or off during an exercise in the occult (or ghost stories scaring kids around a campfire).

Very convincing?

Does that somehow explain (as per the OP) "Why do Theists dominate the banishment list?"

[/quote]

No, I don't think so. You could make a connection, of course, if you labored hard enough at it. "If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything" -- which pretty much describes the entire case for the superficial microbes-to-men materialist paradigm.

And yes, the "intricate fabric of circumstantial evidence" referred to includes the items cited. Even the "ghost stories". Language itself is a "triadic" phenomenon, for which there is no analogy in our diadic, cause-and-effect universe. Interesting, then -- to those whose interest is not blunted by a fixation on the prosaic functions of matter as being all that ever "is, was, or will be" -- that Our Lord and Savior is referred to as the "Logos". The Word. He is the fullness of God's expression -- what God has to "say".

Everything is part of the "intricate fabric". Our cosmos is a "grand miracle".

The great failing of modern science is its denial of that fact -- a fact that was accepted by the giants upon which it was founded.

[OnceConvinced]

As mentioned, my journey went in the other direction.

I completely accepted the materialist/microbes-to-men evolutionist paradigm, before I lost my faith in it. It's just that our realty is too densely mysterious, too pregnant, too lyrical, for such a superficial, prosaic, academic, and somewhat dull explanation for it.

We exist in a finite dimensional reality that is a subset of an infinite, eternal one. And that "super" reality presses upon ours at every point. Occasionally, it breaks through, in overt and explicit ways. My own view is that it does so by invitation: prayer is one form of invitation. So is the occult. Since the Bible informs us that we are in a "spiritual war", it is prudent to be aware of what kind of invitation we are extending. And to who it is extended.

Coincidences do happen. Incredible coincidences. I could tell you some stories, but I won't as there is probably no point and I fear we have already taken this thread way of course.

I too have had a bizarre experience which at the time I believed was completely supernatural. Even now when I think of it, it blows my mind, but I know there has to be natural explanations and there are some potential natural explanations that I have come across. The human brain though, is something that we have only scratched the surface of understanding on.

I have talked about it before on this site, but basically I had a guy imagine things in his mind and I was able to see those images in my own head. There was another guy in the room who was also viewing these images and was describing what I had seen AFTER I had seen them.

Somehow my friend was able to project weak images of what was going on in his head into my head.

Christians of course claimed this to be of the occult. Some type of psychic thing done by the devil. I reject that now. I have some very strong theories on what I experienced, all which have scientific explanations.

[OnceConvinced]

Again -- was the power glitch confined to your computer? Or was it a surge, or other anomaly, that affected the entire house? Usually when the latter happens, I'll have to reset digital clocks, often in several rooms -- but not always all (?. I'm not an electrician, but I assume the reason lies with breakers, surge protection engineered into the house's electrical system, or used as a multiport adapter, etc.).

My question would be why would supernatural entities play such silly games? And how would they do it anyway?

If something supernatural was there I'm sure it would do more than just have a few lights flicker or knock on a door or two. Something supernatural would surely be able to have more of an effect than that. Why are they always so pathetic and weak?

It's stories like this that make me even more sceptical. The supernatural using non-supernatural means to announce their presence or to try to get messages through. Something supernatural would operate in supernatural ways not non-supernatural ways. It bamboozles me why, when natural things happen, Christians automatically want to jump to the conclusion that it was supernatural.

Why do supernatural beings always choose natural ways to do things? It makes no sense, unless of course we are to say that they are non-existent and humans have overactive imaginations.

The event I refer to was remarkable because it was NOT like the sort of common power interruptions/outages/anomalies with which we are all so familiar. I asked my wife about the incident this evening at dinner. She, like me, can't remember precisely the exact sequence of events -- this happened at least 25 years ago -- but she rather matter of factly recounted "the lights came on and went back off, by themselves". Of course, if the whole house had gone dark, and then the lights came back on, you might say "the timing of that surge was strange", or coincidental. But the fact that it was selected lights, turning on and off in a sequential manner, in a house whose three occupants were seated at a table, away from the light switches... and the timing of the event...

If it were me in your shoes and it happened to me now, I would presume there was some natural explanation. I would not suddenly presume the supernatural. Just because we can't understand something doesn't mean we should stoop to ignorance and say "Goddidit" or "TheDevilDidit"

that is the only reason I recount the tale here. Is there a "natural" explanation? Perhaps. But them nature itself is supernatural,

That's a contradiction. If it's natural, then it's not supernatural. That's like saying if it's Black then it's white.

as even any Wiccan will tell you.

If a Wiccan believes that what is natural is really supernatural, then that is their prerogative. I don't see why we would take a Wiccan seriously when they make such a claim.

From my point of view, the supernatural is simply the natural which we have not yet come up with a natural explanation for.

Yes. We are learning more and more about God's creation, thanks to the modern science that was founded by those that had a firm faith in His ordained, and ordered, creation.

Actually for me I'm learning more and more about evolution. More and more that show this world is NOT created by God. More and more which is proving the bible wrong.

Have you noticed that we hear of them much more now, than previously in history?

Not that there's an increased incidence of them (there may or may not be), but we now have the seismic and communications technology to hear of them more.

Yes, due to that equipment, as well as a better way of spreading information across the world. We hear about them more now. It's because before there was no way for us to hear about them. So it's only natural that people are going to think there are more earthquakes these days, when really there most likely isn't.

But be not alarmed -- this is but "the beginnings of sorrows..."

People have believed the tribulation is upon us for 2000 years now. They all had one thing in common. They were all completely and hopelessly wrong. Even Paul.

I've been hearing doom and gloom from Christians all through my life. It's just crying "wolf". If it was going to happen it would have happened a long time ago. Back in Paul's days. (and he believed it was happening).

[Zzyzx]

.

It's stories like this that make me even more sceptical.

Those inclined to believe in the paranormal evidently LIKE such tales and testimonials -- seemingly thinking that others will be convinced by unverifiable stories . . . perhaps not realizing that many people are not gullible and naive.

Let's encourage those who believe in supernaturalism, superstition and paranormal to keep posting this sort of thing to show readers the type of thinking behind such positions.

[Zzyzx]

.

Of course, “if lights come on unassisted during an exercise in the occult� THAT is evidence supernaturalism was involved.

Readers are likely to be REALLY impressed with such testimonial evidence.

That gladdens my heart to hear.

Perhaps that went over someone's head?

I wish there was more traffic on this thread, to hear it.

There are 4400+ views so far. Perhaps a few more testimonials and tales will yield even more interest. Many people like fantasy, fiction, mystery, and tall tales.

And I really wish posters would chime in with their own experiences of the uncanny. I know many people have experienced the kinds of events I have recounted.

I'll try to help.

Friends were visiting my place and I asked 'How did you two meet?' The wife started a story about meeting in church; however, she leaned back and inadvertently / unknowingly hit the touch switch for an overhead light. She was startled when the light came on and I, being an irreverent sort, said “Judy, that light comes on when anyone tells a lie�. She turned beet red and stammered incoherently. I still do not know how they met. It may have been in church, but she sure looked guilty . . .

Is that evidence of paranormal forces at work? Would it be evidence if I had not known the touch switch was behind her?

Kindly supply readers with references, citations, URLs to support the contention that continental plate movement was 'Caused by incremental shifts in Earth's crust along tectonic plate fault lines, that were set in place in a matter of weeks during the Flood of Noah (pushing up mountain ranges in the process), and which continue the subduction process that was runaway at that time.�

Your wish is my command.

http://creation.com/catastrophic-plate- ... esis-flood

http://creation.com/how-landscapes-reveal-noahs-flood

http://creation.com/flood-models-biblical-realism

https://creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter12.pdf

WOW – now THAT is the way to find authoritative information about plate tectonics – a creationist website. That must REALLY increase credibility with readers.

Can you cite publications in the professional literature regarding plate tectonics, preferably peer reviewed articles in legitimate scientific publications, that support your contentions?

A reasonably astute high school student can make those observations / predictions. Educated adults might be more specific. But if attributed to a religious icon they are PROFOUND.

I don't think they had high school 2,000 years ago.

We have high schools now – and even courses beyond high school.

It would seem as though a 'god' (or part of a god, or whatever the billing) would know, even two thousand years ago, more than a current high school student. However, if the tales were written by HUMANS who knew no more than typical of their era, such observations might have seemed profound.

Just part of the intricate fabric of circumstantial evidence of that for which is outside the domain of empirical proof.

What is the difference between 'outside the domain of empirical proof' vs. speculation, imagination, and fantasy?

Children may imagine having an invisible giant rabbit as a friend -- 'outside the domain of empirical proof'. How is it different from an adult imagining they have invisible 'god' friends?

Yes, the 'intricate fabric of circumstantial evidence' such as lights 'mysteriously' turning on and / or off during an exercise in the occult (or ghost stories scaring kids around a campfire).

Does that somehow explain (as per the OP) "Why do Theists dominate the banishment list?"

No, I don't think so. You could make a connection, of course, if you labored hard enough at it. [/quote]
A possible connection might be that when Theists attempt to debate using unsubstantiated claims and tales of paranormal / supernatural, opposition debaters ask for verifiable information to substantiate what is told. The tales and testimonials cannot / have not been shown to be anything more than imagination,

Theists often become frustrated, angry, hostile, and inclined to make personally directed remarks or engage in obfuscation rather than debating honorably.

"If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything" -- which pretty much describes the entire case for the superficial microbes-to-men materialist paradigm.

As an example of obfuscation, 'microbes-to-men' has nothing to do with the OP topic AND is not a matter being debated – but is a 'stinky fish' (red herring) thrown in to derail the topic.

And yes, the "intricate fabric of circumstantial evidence" referred to includes the items cited. Even the "ghost stories". Language itself is a "triadic" phenomenon, for which there is no analogy in our diadic, cause-and-effect universe. Interesting, then -- to those whose interest is not blunted by a fixation on the prosaic functions of matter as being all that ever "is, was, or will be" -- that Our Lord and Savior is referred to as the "Logos". The Word. He is the fullness of God's expression -- what God has to "say".

Everything is part of the "intricate fabric". Our cosmos is a "grand miracle".

That is quite a preach – empty words with no substantiation (specifically prohibited by Forum Rules). Many Theists seem unable to control their urge to preach their beliefs rather than debate issues – which explains why some are banned. This is not a revival meeting. It is a debate site.

The great failing of modern science is its denial of that fact -- a fact that was accepted by the giants upon which it was founded.

The great advantage of science is that it does not concern itself with unverifiable tales about characters and events that cannot be shown to be anything more than imagination.

[Volbrigade]

[Replying to post 214 by OnceConvinced]

My question would be why would supernatural entities play such silly games? And how would they do it anyway?

If something supernatural was there I'm sure it would do more than just have a few lights flicker or knock on a door or two. Something supernatural would surely be able to have more of an effect than that. Why are they always so pathetic and weak?

That's actually a good question, and a good point. I'll respond with my opinion.

The reason they play "silly games" is because we are engaged in an unseen spiritual war. We are presently living in the Church Age, during which the Holy Spirit, operating through the Church -- the Body of Believers -- is acting as "The Restrainer" against our spiritual enemies.

Perhaps they can do no more, physically, than "parlor tricks". Which is precisely what this was -- our "parlor" was adjacent to the dining room where the reading took place.

There is coming a time when the Restrainer will be removed; and then, if you're alive, and not redeemed, you will get to see what such forces can really do, operating as they do in a higher dimensional domain, and easily able to manifest in the lower one; just as a cube is easily able to manifest as a quadrilateral (e.g., a square) in three dimensions.

It's stories like this that make me even more sceptical. The supernatural using non-supernatural means to announce their presence or to try to get messages through. Something supernatural would operate in supernatural ways not non-supernatural ways. It bamboozles me why, when natural things happen, Christians automatically want to jump to the conclusion that it was supernatural.

That would certainly be bamboozling. I only jump to the conclusion that supernatural things happen, when supernatural things actually happen. Such as language, or love. Or candle flames rising, going out, and reigniting during a seance.

Oh, btw -- cool experience you describe! I only now noticed, in posting this response, and scrolling through the "topic view". Great stuff. Thanks for sharing. I'm telling you, that sort of weird (blank) (blank) goes on all the time.

Zzyzx wrote:

WOW – now THAT is the way to find authoritative information about plate tectonics – a creationist website. That must REALLY increase credibility with readers.

Can you cite publications in the professional literature regarding plate tectonics, preferably peer reviewed articles in legitimate scientific publications, that support your contentions?

I detect that you are not pleased with my choice of urls. That is your problem, not mine.

Creationists HAVE no peers. That's because they deal exclusively in truth; not superficial materialist fables that ignore the totality of reality.

Theists often become frustrated, angry, hostile, and inclined to make personally directed remarks or engage in obfuscation rather than debating honorably.

It appears Theists are not alone in that regard...

Let's encourage those who believe in supernaturalism, superstition and paranormal to keep posting this sort of thing to show readers the type of thinking behind such positions.

And what type of thinking would that be, Z?

The type that maintains "everything that has a beginning must have a cause?"

The type that is not satisfied with the prosaic, dull, dreary, academic account of matter being all that exists; and that it -- through some imaginary fluctuation of energy -- turned microbes into men?

The kind that insists that this universe is too wonderful; too amazing; too lyrical, poetic, and infused with meaning, to be nothing more than a dance of atoms?

The kind that asks the following question, in another thread, and which I invite either you or OC to take a crack at, here?
________________

And now, I ask you a question.

What if you’re right?

What if mindless, random energy is “all there is, all there was, and all there ever will be�?

What if all we are is a temporary arrangement of matter? A pattern, here today and gone, forever, tomorrow?

What possible difference could that make? In fact — what possible difference could anything make?

And what difference would it make if I believed otherwise? If I chose to believe a complex, imaginary fable about an eternal Mind that created a space-time environment; a fable which explained the cause of man’s depravity, and the way out of it —even if it was all just an ancient and ongoing fabrication, what difference does it make?

And what difference does it make that energy occasionally arranges itself in patterns such as the deformed child you pictured? Or generates patterns in the matter that composes human brains that motivates them to slaughter each other over territories or genetics or ideas? What difference does it make what I do with my own little pattern of energy, during the brief period of time it is integrated and possesses the consciousness to make determinations as to what it does?

And if, for instance, someone should be in the way of my obtaining some objective that would please my consciousness, what difference does it make what I do to them in order to remove them as an obstacle?

I’m just asking. Do you have an answer for me?

Is it possible that even if your belief system is true, and mindless matter and energy is all that ever was or will be: that it would be BETTER if we lived as though we were subject to living forever, based on what we do during our temporary pattern of consciousness, before we revert back to our eternal elements of mindless matter-energy?

Even if that would mean “living a lie�, so to speak?

Or would that make any difference, either?

And if so — in what way?

I await your answer.
____________________

I see, in preparing to post this, that you added a picture (edit: of children's bodies, apparently killed in war -- Allepo?) — impulses of energy that informs the technology of my computer to arrange pixels into a recognizable pattern. The pattern formed is of briefly sentient patterns of matter-energy, rendered into their pre-sentient state, from which the complexity of their integrated pattern will eventually degrade into a simpler state of disassociated chemicals; before further degrading into constituent compounds and elements — perhaps to remerge in another integrated state of consciousness in time (a process that would be guaranteed, and speed up, by cookery and consumption by other integrated patterns of consciousness).

One may INFER from the picture — there is no empirical proof associated with it — that the rendering of the life forms within it into their inert condition was motivated by the patterns that energy assumed in the brains of other sentient organisms with consciousness. Just as the temporary pattern of consciousness in your brain was motivated by ever-changing energy to post the picture.

And now, my pattern of energy takes on the form of asking a question:

What difference does it make?

Either the picture itself, or the contents of it? Your posting it, or my response to it?

Is it not all merely part of the ever-changing pattern of energy that we exist in?

Again — I await your answer.