What is science

[KingandPriest]

In various debates, some have opted of putting science against Christianity or the bible in general. There are those who argue that science is completely different, while others claim there are similarities between faith in science and faith in the claims found in the bible.

I hold that science is the activity of systematically studying a body of knowledge on a particular subject. There are various branches of knowledge to study which result in the various "sciences" we have in the world today. As a whole science relies on both empirical and non-empirical types of evidence to support and establish claims, theories and observed repeatable events. The natural sciences attempt to focus solely on empirical evidence as much as possible, while other bodies of knowledge may use empirical evidence or non-empirical evidence.

As of today, there are 15 types of evidence which can be used to test the validity of a claim. These are:

Testimonial evidence
Statistical / Mathematical evidence
Presumptive evidence
Hearsay evidence
Documentation evidence
Demonstrative evidence
Circumstantial evidence
Character evidence
Analogical evidence
Anecdotal evidence
Physical evidence
Digital evidence
Direct evidence
Exculpatory evidence
Forensic evidence

Of the 15 mentioned above, the scientific method demands that evidence is limited to empirical evidence, and dismisses 10 other types of evidence. The natural sciences are required to dismiss other types of evidence that cannot be proven empirically.

To this I ask:

1. What is science?
2. Are all the types of "sciences" equal?
3. What is science based on?
4. Do different sciences base knowledge on the same principals or evidences?

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 53 by KingandPriest]

Testimonial evidence

You have 4 gospels written by anonymous people decades after the events described. These are not eyewitness testimonies. Luke specifically claims to not be an eyewitness but recounts tales told to him by anonymous sources who have claimed to have knowledge about the events. Even if they do point to a historical figure head that goes by the name of Jesus this does in no way verify the tales told in them. There are numerous historical texts that document many things we can verify. They also depict unverifiable and absurd claims. Just because one tale can be verified does not mean the entire text is a factual account. Look no further than Egyptian Hyroglyphs recounting the tales of Various Pharoahs. These writings also claim various Pharoahs were gods or ascended to god hood. Just because we know that the Pharoahs existed does not mean they were gods or ascended as gods.

I would agree and also argue that much of what was posited as other type of evidence is actually mostly hearsay (which is admitted to be one of the weakest forms as far as usefulness goes).

At the end of the day, if I can't verify the story you(generic you) are telling me, I have no compelling reason to believe it. Showing me a mountain of non verifiable claims does not trump the lack of verifiable facts.

Basically what theists seem to be hoping for is that because there is 'a lot' of non verifiable evidence, some of it must be true. When none of it can be verified, they lean on the fact there's "lots of it". It may be comforting to the theist, but not convincing to anyone else.

So the documented instances of people being healed from the HIV virus is just hearsay? What about the well documented instances in the life of George Muller, are these hearsay as well? It is easy to make a claim that everything is hearsay without looking at the actual evidence, it is another thing to look at the evidence for yourself, and still reject it based on personal preference.

I did not see you mention HIV or documented instances of healing in your post #53 so I'm not clear what you are talking about. I also made no claim that everything is hearsay. What I did say is that much of what you posted could be argued to be hearsay.

For example, you mention some early historians mentioning Jesus. You claim this is "Documentation evidence". I would argue that this documentation is likely based on hearsay not direct observation from the historians in question. I understand historians aren't always witness to the events in question. That means they must base their writings on some other form of evidence. Like hearsay.

Unless you can provide a "chain of evidence" most of what you posted likely involves hearsay. That doesn't mean it is all untrue, just that it must be treated for what it is. In many cases, non verifiable.

If I write down on a piece of paper that my hamster died of heat exposure does this count as "Documentation evidence" that you would deem useful in any way to validate anything? Maybe it's just a story. Maybe I never even had a hamster. Sometimes people just write stuff down. The point is that if there is no way to validate the evidence, it's not worth the paper it's written on.

* For the record, no hamsters were harmed under my care. I've never owned a hamster.

[H.sapiens]

Feeling something is true and believing something is true is still different then knowing something is true. The only evidence that "God" created everything is in a storybook. On what basis do we know this storybook is true?

[center]
PART I - Non empirical evidence that supports the validity of the bible[/center]

We can determine the bible is true based on the available evidence to support it. As mentioned in the OP, there are currently 15 types of evidence we humans use to test the validity of any claim. These are:
Testimonial evidence
Statistical / Mathematical evidence
Presumptive evidence
Hearsay evidence
Documentation evidence
Demonstrative evidence
Circumstantial evidence
Character evidence
Analogical evidence
Anecdotal evidence
Physical evidence
Digital evidence
Direct evidence
Exculpatory evidence
Forensic evidence

So lets look at all 15 that support the bible:

Testimonial evidence
We can look at the recorded testimonial evidence present within the 4 gospels to ascertain if these events align with the pattern of known testimonial evidence. Two people can look at the same event, or even the same historical character, and NOT agree about what they have seen. Many years ago President John F. Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, and the entire event was captured on video tape. There were hundreds of eyewitnesses to that event. The tapes were watched over and over again. Yet, in the midst of such a deep eyewitness account, people still argue to this day about what they saw and what actually happened. Some argue that the video clearly indicates that there was a lone assassin. Others argue that the video images clearly prove that there was more than one shooter and therefore must have been a conspiracy.

Something very similar occurred in recent years when the World Trade Center was attacked by Islamic Terrorists. Most of us either saw the attack live on television or watched the video for months afterward. But the event is still interpreted in a variety of ways. Some believe that the evidence clearly indicates that terrorists conceived and executed the attack, while a growing number of conspiracy theorists believe that the video shows a number of explosive events just prior to the impact of the jets, and they have constructed an elaborate conspiracy theory to explain how the disaster was NOT the work of terrorists but actually a plot on the part of the government! Two historical events. Both very well documented. But, both interpreted differently.

When analyzing texts which claim to be eye witness testimony, one thing investigators look for is collusion. A former atheist criminal investigator applied his skills as an investigator to the 4 gospels and reached the conclusion that they are witness accounts. He wrote:

The most reasonable inference is that the gospel writers were present, corroborated,
accurate, and unbiased. If this is the case, we can conclude with confidence that their testimony is reliable.

page 252 http://ebooks.rahnuma.org/religion/Chri ... ianity.pdf

Rather than restate all of the evidence supporting the testimonial evidence of the 4 gospels, you can click on the link above and read for yourself.

Statistical / Mathematical evidence
There is overwhelming statistical evidence that supports the prophecies in the bible. Because the evidence is so overwhelming, some try to assert that the only way these prophecies were correct is that they were written after the fact. To combat this, I will point to one specific prophecy that no one has been able ot refute as an after the fact prophecy. Due to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (henceforth called DSS), we have evidence that the old testament has remained basically untouched since at least 400-200BC. In the book of Daniel chapter 9, a prophecy was made that included the description of a series of events which needed to occur within a specific period of time. We know based on extra biblical record of the Babylonians and Persians, that the Israelites were held in captivity. Daniel 9:24-26 states

24 Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city,to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.
25 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

This prophecy basically outlines that the Messiah will be (i)born and die within a the span of 483 years of the date a decree is given to allow Jerusalem to be rebuilt, (ii) the same people who 'cut off' (or killed) the Messiah would also destroy the city and temple in Jerusalem,
(iii) sin would be atoned for
(iv) make everlasting righteousness available to everyone

Combing the odds of these events taking place within the alloted time frame yields:
The average population of Bethlehem from the time of Micah (population estimates based on prb.org data) divided by the average population of the earth during the same period = 7,150/2,000,000,000 or 2.8×10^-5.
One man in how many, claiming to be the messiah, born within a specific 483-year time period: 1 in 10,000 or 1×10^-4
One set of people or government in how many who will kill a religious figure, and then destroy the religious epicenter of a religion: 1 in 100 or 1x10^-2
One man in how many, since the time of David, has been crucified?
About 10,000 estimated crucifixions(about 6000 alone from the Spartacus revolt) divided by 10,000,000 capital executions worldwide = 10K / 10M or 1×10^-4
Probability of atoning for sin equates to the probability of one person in total human population at that time who lived a life without sin, and could exchange their righteousness for the sin of others: 1 in 300,000,000 or 0.3x10^-9

Just combining these 5, we arrive at an astounding unlikely probability of 0.84×10^-24 of all these prophesied events coming to pass as recorded in the Book of Daniel. The probability of any one of these events occuring at all would require a great deal of chance, but for them all to coincide is near mathematical impossibility. That’s 0.84 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Please remember this is 1, out of the over 300 prophecies about the messiah which are in the bible.

Another way of stating this is that a Christian can assert with great confidence that the old testament spoke about Jesus at least 200-400 years before he was born, and described events in his life in detail with only a 0.0000000000000000000000000084 probability of getting those details correct. There is no other book in history which has even come close to performing this level of prophecy. Adding additional biblical prophecies gives readers of the bible even more mathematical evidence to have confidence in the books of the bible.

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Article ... Earth.aspx

Hearsay evidence
Hearsay evidence is one of the easiest type of evidence to find, but also one of the least trustworthy as it is difficult to independently verify. As such, I will list a few sources of hearsay evidence and then move on.

http://www.oddee.com/item_98653.aspx
http://www.godisreal.today/modern-day-miracles/


Documentation evidence
Keep in mind that it would be amazing if there was an ancient record of Jesus outside of the Bible. Jesus lived over 2000 years ago. He is an ANCIENT figure from history, and there are some things that we need to remember about historical figures and events from this period of time:

• 1. There are amazingly few manuscripts of ANY text written during Jesus’ time
  2. Historians of this period wrote amazingly little about religious figures anyway
  3. Jesus was active for an amazingly short period of time (just three years)
  4. Jesus ministered in an amazingly remote corner of the Roman Empire

Now, given that these facts are true about the life of Jesus and the people who were recording history two thousand years ago, it would be surprising to find much ancient material related to Jesus at all. But, there ARE a number of ancient non-biblical records that tell of Jesus! There are a number of ancient classical accounts of Jesus from pagan Greek sources. These accounts are generally hostile to Christianity and try to explain away the miraculous nature of Jesus and the events that surrounded his life.

Thallus (52AD)
Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient that his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who had previously tried to explain away the darkness that occurred at the point of Jesus’ crucifixion:

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.� (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

If only more of Thallus’ record could be found, we would see that every aspect of Jesus’ life could be verified with a non-biblical source. But there are some things we can conclude from this account: Jesus lived, he was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of his crucifixion.

Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)
Early Christians are also described in secular history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:

“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.�

This EARLY description of the first Christians documents several facts: the first Christians believed that Jesus was GOD, the first Christians upheld a high moral code, and these early followers et regularly to worship Jesus.

Suetonius (69-140AD)
Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):

“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome).� (Life of Claudius, 25:4)

This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:

“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.� (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)

There is much we can learn from Suetonius as it is related to the life of early Christians. From this very EARLY account, we know that Jesus had an immediate impact on his followers. They believed that Jesus was God enough to withstand the torment and punishment of the Roman Empire. Jesus had a curious and immediate impact on his followers, empowering them to die courageously for what they knew to be true.

Tacitus (56-120AD)
Cornelius Tacitus was known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians. He was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and was also proconsul of Asia. In his “Annals’ of 116AD, he describes Emperor Nero’s response to the great fire in Rome and Nero’s claim that the Christians were to blame:

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.�

In this account, Tacitus confirms for us that Jesus lived in Judea, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and had followers who were persecuted for their faith in Christ.

Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
Sometime after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact that Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. As a matter of fact, Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King�:

“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.�

From this account, we can add to our understanding of Jesus. We can conclude that Jesus was a wise and influential man who died for his beliefs. We can also conclude that his followers adopted these beliefs and lived lives that reflected them to the world in which they lived.

Phlegon (80-140AD)
In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:

“Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour.� (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):

“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.� (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place … � (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)

“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.� (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)

From these accounts, we can add something to our understand of Jesus and conclude that Jesus had the ability to accurately predict the future, was crucified under the reign of Tiberius Caesar and demonstrated his wounds after he was resurrected!

Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)
Lucian was a Greek satirist who spoke sarcastically of Christ and Christians, but in the process, he did affirm that they were real people and never referred to them as fictional characters:

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.� (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)

From this account we can add to our description and conclude that Jesus taught about repentance and about the family of God. These teachings were quickly adopted by Jesus’ followers and exhibited to the world around them.

Celsus (175AD)
This is the last hostile ‘pagan’ account we will examine (although there are many other later accounts in history). Celsus was quite hostile to the Gospels, but in his criticism, he unknowingly affirms and reinforces the authors and their content. His writing is extensive and he alludes to 80 different Biblical quotes, confirming their early appearance in history. In addition, he admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the early 2nd century! Here is a portion of his text:

“Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.�

Celsus admits that Jesus was reportedly born of a virgin, but then argues that this could supernatural account could not be possible and offers the idea that he was a bastard son of a man named Panthera (an idea borrowed from Jews who opposed Jesus at the time). But in writing this account, Celsus does confirm that Jesus had an earthly father who was a carpenter, possessed unusual magical powers and claimed to be God.

There is also Hostile Jewish records which I will list by name only to conserve space:
Josephus (37-101AD)
Jewish Talmud (400-700AD)
The Toledot Yeshu (1000AD)
Presumptive evidence
Presumption is a normal part of any logical excercise. We presume certain facts by perceiving their existence from other evidence. The argument of an intelligent designer is one of the most fundamental presumptive evidences used by the bible. There are specific passages that point to the complexity of creation to presume that God must have created what we observe and experience.

By contrast, those who support the theory of evolution typically point to the existence of homologous structures among different animal types. In essence, some non-theist propose that an infinently wise creator would not have used the same structural disign to create arms, wings, frog legs, etc. It is presumed that the evidence of homologous structures proves that a creator does not exist or is not infinently intelligent.

Back to the bible. The bible presumes humans have immaterial soul/spirit and a physical body. In the new testament, one of the gifts promised to believers is the gift of speaking in tongues. This gift is described as the Holy Spirit of God praying through a believer in unknown languages or through groans and utterances which cannot be understood (except by God himself). To test this claim against other forms of prayer, the Myrna Center for Integrative Medicine completed one of the most compelling studies to investigate the claims of Christians in comparison to other religions and prayer.

The study focused on meditation, prayer and a specific type of prayer which has been claimed by Christians to be entirely spiritual, speaking in tongues. One would expect that prayer requires a person to use both the frontal and inferior parietal lobes of their brain, the same area that is used during human concentration and communication, to be active during meditation and prayer. The results of the study is shown below:

To look at neurophysiology of religious and spiritual practices, we used brain imaging technology called Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography (SPECT), which allows us to measure blood flow. The more blood flow a brain area has, the more active it is. When we scanned the brains of Tibetan Buddhist meditators, we found decreased activity in the superior parietal lobe during meditation. This area of the brain is responsible for giving us a sense of our orientation in space and time. We hypothesize that blocking a sensory and cognitive input into this area during meditation is associated with the sense of no space and no time that is so often described in meditation. The front part of the brain, which is involved in focusing attention and concentration, was more active during meditation. This makes sense since meditation requires a high degree of concentration. We also found that the more activity increased in the frontal lobe, the more activity decreased in the parietal lobe.

When we looked at the brains of Franciscan nuns in prayer, we found increased activity in the frontal lobes (same as Buddhists), but also increased activity in the inferior parietal lobe (the language area). This finding makes sense in relation to the nuns doing a verbally based practice (prayer) rather than visualization (meditation). The nuns like the Buddhists, also showed decreased activity in the superior parietal lobe.

We also looked at the brain of a long-term meditator who was also an atheist. We scanned the person at rest and while meditating on the concept of God. The results showed that there were no significant increase in the frontal lobes as with other meditation practices The implication is that the individual was not able to activate the structures usually found in meditation when he was focusing on a concept that he did not believe in.

In addition we looked at the images of five individuals who claim to pray with their spirit by a phenomenon known to Christians as speaking in tongues. In contrast to the Buddhist, nuns and atheist, the individuals who prayed while speaking in tongues had little to no activity in the frontal and parietal lobes. The individuals were not in a trance-like state as the regions involved in maintaining self-consciousness were still active, but it was unclear which region was driving the behavior. Our finding of decreased activity in the frontal lobes during the practice of speaking in tongues is fascinating because these subjects truly believe that the spirit of God is moving through them and controlling them to speak. Our brain imaging research shows us that these subjects are not in control of the usual language centers during this activity, which is consistent with their description of a lack of intentional control while speaking in tongues.

http://www.andrewnewberg.com/research/

Principal Investigator Dr. Newberg went on to state of the study:

These findings could be interpreted as the subject’s sense of self being taken over by something else. We, scientifically, assume it’s being taken over by another part of the brain, but we couldn’t see, in this imaging study, where this took place. We believe this is the first scientific imaging study evaluating changes in cerebral activity -- looking at what actually happens to the brain -- when someone is speaking in tongues. This study also showed a number of other changes in the brain, including those areas involved in emotions and establishing our sense of self.

http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_Rel ... olalia.htm

The study concluded with an affirmation that it was the immaterial part of the mind which directed the activity of speaking in tongues (glossolalia). Newberg concludes that the changes in the brain during speaking in tongues reflect a complex pattern of brain activity caused by immaterial invisible phenomenon.

Once again, the soul is defined as the immaterial part of a human being. This study provided credible, verifiable evidence that interaction takes place between the immaterial part of the mind, and the physical brain.

Feel free to check out the actual research in the links below. (Source #4 will require purchase, as this is where the core research is presented.)

Sources
1. http://www.livescience.com/21491-what-i ... n-of-theor...
2. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/healt ... .html?_r=0
3. http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... ing_in_ton...
4. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 2706001211
5. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 07751ee211
dd/c,zxxZ

Demonstrative evidence
Here are a few links of Christians today demonstrating the tasks specifically demonstrating the power of God to "work" miracles by the authority of Jesus.







There is also the well documented miracles of spontaneous remission of certain types of cancer.

The spontaneous healing of cancer is a phenomenon that has been observed for hundreds and thousands of years and after having been the subject of many controversies, it is now accepted as an indisputable fact.
...
Cancer therapies have been standardized and have improved since Coley's day, but surprisingly modern cancer patients do not fare better than patients treated 50 or more years ago as concluded by researchers in 1999.
...
The standard definition of spontaneous regression as “the partial or complete disappearance of a malignant tumor in the absence of treatment or in the presence of therapy considered inadequate to exert a significant influence on the disease.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312698/


There are also cases of non-medical miracles like those which were evidenced in the life of George Muller. This man put faith to the test by building multiple orphanages without asking other people for anything. He would on his faith in God.

Through all this, Müller never made requests for financial support, nor did he go into debt, even though the five homes cost over £100,000 to build. Many times, he received unsolicited food donations only hours before they were needed to feed the children, further strengthening his faith in God. For example, on one well-documented occasion, they gave thanks for breakfast when all the children were sitting at the table, even though there was nothing to eat in the house. As they finished praying, the baker knocked on the door with sufficient fresh bread to feed everyone, and the milkman gave them plenty of fresh milk because his cart broke down in front of the orphanage.
...
Müller prayed about everything and expected each prayer to be answered. One example was when one of the orphan house's boiler stopped working; Müller needed to have it fixed. This was a problem, because the boiler was bricked up and the weather was worsening with each day. So he prayed for two things; firstly that the workers he had hired would have a mind to work throughout the night, and secondly that the weather would let up. On the Tuesday before the work was due to commence, a bitter north wind still blew but in the morning, before the workmen arrived, a southerly wind began to blow and it was so mild that no fires were needed to heat the buildings. That evening, the foreman of the contracted company attended the site to see how he might speed things along, and instructed the men to report back first thing in the morning to make an early resumption of work. The team leader stated that they would prefer to work through the night. The job was done in 30 hours.
In 1862, it was discovered that one of the drains was blocked. Being some 11 feet underground, workmen were unable to find the blockage despite several attempts. Müller prayed about the situation and the workmen at once found the site of the problem.
Strong gales in Bristol on Saturday 14 January 1865 caused considerable damage in the area and over twenty holes were opened in the roofs. Around 20 windows were also broken and two frames damaged by falling slates. The glazier and slater normally employed had already committed their staff to other work so nothing could be done until the Monday. Had the winds continued, with heavy rain, the damage to the orphanage would have been much greater. After much prayer, the wind stopped in the afternoon and no rain fell until Wednesday, by which time most of the damage had been repaired.
Once, while crossing the Atlantic on the SS Sardinian in August 1877, his ship ran into thick fog. He explained to the captain that he needed to be in Quebec by the following afternoon, but Captain Joseph E. Dutton (later known as "Holy Joe") said that he was slowing the ship down for safety and Müller's appointment would have to be missed. Müller asked to use the chartroom to pray for the lifting of the fog. The captain followed him down, claiming it would be a waste of time. After Müller prayed, the captain started to pray, but Müller stopped him; partly because of the captain's unbelief, but mainly because he believed the prayer had already been answered. When the two men went back to the bridge, they found the fog had lifted. The captain became a Christian shortly afterwards.
Müller's faith in God strengthened day by day and he spent hours in daily prayer and Bible reading. Indeed, it was his practice, in later years, to read through the entire Bible four times a year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller

These are direct and well documented instances of God demonstrating His power in the world.

Circumstantial evidence
Circumstantial evidence is cumulative in nature; they usually are built with a number of evidences. The power of these kinds of evidences increases when more and more of these evidences point to a single cause or character. Eventually with enough circumstantial evidence, it can be overwhelming to refute and it becomes harder and harder to explain how ALL these individual circumstantial pieces could all point to the same cause.

If we were to treat Christianity like any other case where circumstantial evidence was being presented we would expect the case to be comprehensive and cumulative. There are MANY items of evidence that must be considered and they cannot be considered in isolation from one another. The strength of the case for the Christian Worldview comes from the cumulative depth of the evidence.

• The Case for the Existence of the Soul is Strong Circumstantial Evidence that the Spiritual Realm Exists
  The Case From Public Vs. Private Properties
  -Physical Properties Can Be PUBLICLY Known
  -Mental Properties Are Only PRIVATELY Known
  -THEREFORE: Mental Properties Are NOT Physical Properties
  The Case From First Person Reality
  -Like Everyone, I Only Use First Person Possessive Pronouns to Indicate Possession of Something Other Than “Me�
  -Like Everyone, I Commonly Use First Person Possessive Pronouns When Describing My Body
  -THEREFORE: My Body Is Something Other Than “Me�
  The Case From Measurability
  Physical Entities Can Be Measured Using Physical Measurement Instruments
  But As Humans, We Possess Mental Entities (Thoughts, Wills, Desires and Sensations) That Are Not Measurable By These Methods
  THEREFORE: Humans Are More Than Physical Beings
  The Case From Self Existence
  Mind Body Dualism
  Mental Entities Are Not Self Existent
  But Our Brains, As Physical Entities, ARE Self Existent
  THEREFORE: Our Brains Are NOT The Same As Our Minds
  The Case From Free Agency
  No Physical System is a Free Agent
  Therefore No Physical System Has Moral Responsibility
  Human Beings DO Have Moral Responsibility
  THEREFORE: Therefore Human Beings Are NOT Simply Physical Systems

We can make reasonable deductions and inferences from the many arguments and evidences that are presented, just as a jury does when it deliberates on a case. Our case is further strengthened by the fact that there are so many different lines of evidence, crossing over a variety of disciplines, and all leading to the same conclusion. The case for the Christian Worldview becomes strong as we consider the TOTALITY of the evidence before us. While each individual piece of evidence is compelling in its own right (and, in fact, many people have been convinced by the singular arguments) the case becomes overwhelming when considered in totality.

Christianity is either FALSE, but lucky enough to be consistent with the circumstantial evidence we have listed, or it is TRUE and cannot help but be authenticated by this evidence.

Character evidence

Character evidence is important to all claims of supporting evidence to validate a claim. A person who lacks credibility is less likely to be able to substantiate or support a claim, than one with no credibility. I could point to the countless number of well respected Christian scholars who have performed thorough and unbiased research to support the claims in the bible, but instead, I feel it would be better to list former athiests.

Who better to offer as a credible witness than a person who once lacked belief in God, and through investigation of actual evidence realized there was overwhelming evidence to support God's existence. To that end, I now include links to various statements made by former non-theists who now affirm not only the existence of God, but conclude that the bible is the best and most reliable source for evidence. Reasonable atheists eventually become theists because they are reasonable; and furthermore, because they are honest. They are willing to follow the evidence wherever it leads; and in many cases the evidence comes to the atheist most coherently and well-presented through the writings of believers in God.

But if God is goodness personified and therefore, as our Creator, the divine source of all that is good, true and beautiful, why is there so much evil and suffering? What has gone wrong? The Christian answer to that question, Lewis argues, is that our world has been damaged by rebellion against God. An originally good creation has been spoiled.

If you find this hard to believe, consider the evidence. Look at all the many examples there are of benevolent and intricate design in Nature: the nest-building instincts of birds, the incredibly complex structure of the human brain, the navigational systems of bats and whales, the biological software of DNA in every cell of our bodies, sexual reproduction, etc. All this exists side by side with harmful viruses, disease and death. Can its obvious implications be ignored? Consider, too, the significance of the fact that human beings possess an inner moral code they cannot get rid of yet seem unable to obey. Does all this not suggest some process of deterioration from hopeful beginnings? Is it not also significant that many ancient peoples and cultures, including the Chinese, have some tradition of a lost Paradise in the dim and distant past?

http://www.bethinking.org/is-christiani ... al-journey

http://www.everystudent.com/wires/atheist.html

https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/bl ... tors/4729/

In addition, there are lists of well known former non-theists who would also place their reputaion on the line by coming to knowledge and acceptance of Christ based on evidence. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _nontheism

Analogical evidence
Analogies are mainly useful when dealing with a topic that is under-researched. If you are on the cutting edge of an issue, you’re the person breaking new ground. When you don’t have statistics to refer to or other authorities on the matter to quote, you have to get your evidence from somewhere. Analogical evidence steps in to save the day.

We know the bible is full of analogies (especially farming analogies) to help explain concepts which were difficicult for people to understand. Understanding God and the supernatural realm is rather difficult because we cannot study them by observation in an empirical manner, like we can study the stars in the night sky. The main emphasis of analogies are the things which they are compared to. If we understand the object of comparison, we can better understand the original concept.

The analogy of faith is not the principle that Scripture interprets Scripture, but that all Scripture is in agreement and will not contradict itself. It assumes the unity and harmony of teaching throughout the Bible. In other words, when multiple passages say something about a topic (either explicitly or implicitly), then what those passages say about that topic will be consistent and will not be contradictory. For example, Psalm34:15 speaks of God having eyes and ears, whereas John4:24 says God is spirit. The analogy of faith means that these passages are not contradictory, as they might appear at first glance. We can reconcile them when we recognize that in Psalm34:15 the author is using a figure of speech and is not asserting that God has literal, physical eyes and ears. He is asserting, rather, that God watches over His people and hears their cries for help; whereas in John4:24 Jesus is asserting that God is not a physical being, therefore, the physical location of His worshipers is not what is most important to Him. The analogy of faith forces us to dig further to understand how passages that appear to be contradictory should be understood.

No single statement or obscure passage of one book can be allowed to set aside a doctrine which is clearly established by many passages. The obscure texts must be interpreted in the light of those which are plain and positive.�2 When a particular passage is unclear to us, we can and should go to other passages that address the same topic more clearly in order to help us understand the unclear passage.

Anecdotal evidence
Often dismissed as untrustworthy and meaningless, anecdotal evidence is one of the more underutilized types of evidence. Anecdotal evidence is evidence that is based on a person’s observations of the world. It can actually be very useful for disproving generalizations because all you need is one example that contradicts a claim. One can use this type of evidence to support claims, though, if you use it in conjunction with other types of evidence. Personal observations can serve as wonderful examples to introduce a topic and build it up. Anectdotal evidence is usually useful to disprove negative statements or statements of non-existence.

Countless stories could be cited of diseases cured, supernatural revelation, repentance and forgiveness granted, relationships restored, hungry children fed, bills paid and lives and souls saved through the efficacy of prayer. There is plenty of evidence that God answers prayer. Most of the evidence is anecdotal and personal, however, and that bothers many who think of “evidence� only as that which is observable, measureable, and reproducible.

The accumulation of anecdotal evidence which matches what the bible declares one should experience supports its efficacy.

Scripture clearly teaches that prayers are answered. James 5:16 states that “the prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.� Jesus taught His disciples that “if you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you� (John 15:7). First John 3:22 echoes this truth, saying that we “receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him.�

Scripture, moreover, is replete with stories of answered prayer. Elijah’s prayer for fire from heaven (2 Kings 1:12), Hezekiah’s prayer for deliverance (2 Kings 19:19), and the apostles’ prayer for boldness (Acts 4:29) are just three examples. Since these accounts were written by eyewitnesses to the events, they constitute clear evidence of answered prayer. One might, of course, counter that Scripture does not present observable evidence in the “scientific� sense. However, no statement of Scripture has ever been conclusively disproved, so there is no reason to doubt its testimony. In fact, labeling some kinds of evidence as “scientific� and other kinds as “non-scientific� is a fuzzy and artificial distinction at best. Such a distinction can only be made a priori, i.e., prior to the evaluation of the data. In other words, the choice to evaluate the efficacy of prayer only in light of observable evidence is not a choice motivated by the data but by prior philosophical commitments. When this arbitrary restriction is relaxed, the biblical data speaks clearly for itself.

Even most atheists admit that Christians have and present anecdotal evidence consistently. As stated above, relying solely on anecdotal evidence can lead to errors, so we should combine anecdotal evidence with other evidence to substantiate a claim.

~~~~~

I will post part II that includes empirical evidence to support the validity of the bible shortly.

I suggest that you look to your aids cure claims, they are lies. There is only one patient that has ever been cured of aids: Timothy Ray Brown, long known only as the "Berlin Patient" had HIV for 12 years before he became the first person in the world to be cured of the infection following a bone marrow wipe and transplant and a stem cell transplant in 2007 done for leukemia. A cursory read of the rest of your post indicates that it is no more accurate than your aids cure claim.

[KingandPriest]

So the documented instances of people being healed from the HIV virus is just hearsay? What about the well documented instances in the life of George Muller, are these hearsay as well? It is easy to make a claim that everything is hearsay without looking at the actual evidence, it is another thing to look at the evidence for yourself, and still reject it based on personal preference.

How do you know they were "healed" of HIV? What if it was something scientific that we have not discovered yet, or will never be able to figure out?

You don't have deductive proof (100% certainty) that the person was healed by an entity that exists outside of our reality...They might have been, but you don't *know* one way or the other.

Also, even if there was an entity who was responsible for the healing, you don't *know* who that entity is. It could be the Christian god, or it could be a god entirely foreign and unknown to you. But, either way, until you have deductive proof (Again, 100% certainty), you will not *know* who is responsible for the healing.

You may say: "Yeah, but that's where faith comes in. I am just going to choose to believe it was the Christian God."

When you say that, you are saying you don't care about what is actually true and false, but rather you choose to believe something that makes you comfortable, makes you feel secure, and gives you hope. That's intellectually weak and dishonest. If the Christian god actually is real, I don't think he would approve of intellectual weakness and dishonesty...

It's ironic that the Christian god, if he actually exists, does not approve of humans being intellectually weak and dishonest, and yet the only way to be "saved" by him is by being intellectually weak and dishonest...damned if you do, damned if you dont. Lol

So the documented instances of people being healed from the HIV virus is just hearsay? What about the well documented instances in the life of George Muller, are these hearsay as well? It is easy to make a claim that everything is hearsay without looking at the actual evidence, it is another thing to look at the evidence for yourself, and still reject it based on personal preference.

How do you know they were "healed" of HIV? What if it was something scientific that we have not discovered yet, or will never be able to figure out?

You don't have deductive proof (100% certainty) that the person was healed by an entity that exists outside of our reality...They might have been, but you don't *know* one way or the other.

Also, even if there was an entity who was responsible for the healing, you don't *know* who that entity is. It could be the Christian god, or it could be a god entirely foreign and unknown to you. But, either way, until you have deductive proof (Again, 100% certainty), you will not *know* who is responsible for the healing.

You may say: "Yeah, but that's where faith comes in. I am just going to choose to believe it was the Christian God."

When you say that, you are saying you don't care about what is actually true and false, but rather you choose to believe something that makes you comfortable, makes you feel secure, and gives you hope. That's intellectually weak and dishonest. If the Christian god actually is real, I don't think he would approve of intellectual weakness and dishonesty...

It's ironic that the Christian god, if he actually exists, does not approve of humans being intellectually weak and dishonest, and yet the only way to be "saved" by him is by being intellectually weak and dishonest...damned if you do, damned if you dont. Lol

We know they were healed from HIV based on their own lab results. There are many cases of individuals coming in with their positive lab results of HIV. After being prayed for and the laying on of hands by leaders and elders in the church, they went back to get tested again, and subsequent tests were negative. We know these individuals were prayed for specifically in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:" James 5:14

To try and assert another deity is taking healing people in the name of something that is false is ludicrous. Rather than assess the facts, you begin to propose that it is something scientific that we don't understand yet or haven't discovered. FYI, if we haven't discovered it yet or don't understand it yet, many non-theists would not consider it to be science.

Even if I look at your own comments, we can see you are presenting a strawman argument in hopes to dismiss the actual evidence"

What is science?

Baby don't measure me, don't measure me...no more

This would imply science is the knowledge we have already acquired.

Then you switch to asking for deductive proof (100% certainty). Based on this notion, there are only a few things in life which can be proven with 100% certainty. Even science struggles to prove something with 100% certainty.

Are we 100% certain the earth orbits around the sun? YES
Are we 100% certain the earths core is made of mostly iron? NO
Are we 100% certain about the laws of gravity? NO (we know the laws do not work the same on a molecular and quantum level)

There are very few things which we know with 100% certainty, especially when you begin to discuss the human body and health. Even biology and medicine will tell you that the possibilities for why something occurred in the body is very difficult to isolate. If we could isolate and prove everything with 100% certainty, there would be no sick people in the world today. This isn't the case though.

We know with certainty through faith, because when we call on the name of the Lord Jesus, there is a response and people are healed. We don't say we are just going to believe in the Lord Jesus, we identify that it was the fact that we prayed in his name specifically. Compare these two short prayers:
1) God please heal my friend.
2) Father in the name of Jesus Christ, I ask you to heal my friend.

Which one of these prayers is specifically pointing to a specific deity?
In prayer number 1, your claim of uncertainty is valid because it cannot be proven who is responsible. In prayer number 2, we know specifically on whose authority is the request made. When an ambassador goes into a foreign country, they do so in the name and authority of the president or prime minister of their home country. When the speak, they do so in the name of the specific country they represent. When the ambassador speaks, they use words like "on behalf of the US government" or "in the name of the president of the United States". These words let us know with specificity on whose authority were the requests made.

I do not, and have not provided any such claim of just believing it was Jesus who healed those individuals. I provided specific links of individuals being prayed for in the name of Jesus who had positive HIV test results, and then subsequent proof of them returning with a negative test result after being prayed for. You presented a contrary statement to what was actually provided, and then assert the statement is dishonest and intellectually weak. If so, then both of these claims prove your entire argument is dishonest and intellectually weak.

[help3434]

[Replying to post 53 by KingandPriest]

This post is such a huge Gish Gallop that it is hard to know where to begin, but lets look at your statistical/mathematical section. The whole thing presumes that the Gospel weren't aware of Messianic prophecies and tailor their writings to fit them but let's look at the specific claims.

In the book of Daniel chapter 9, a prophecy was made that included the description of a series of events which needed to occur within a specific period of time. We know based on extra biblical record of the Babylonians and Persians, that the Israelites were held in captivity. Daniel 9:24-26 states
Quote:
24 Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city,to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.
25 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.


This prophecy basically outlines that the Messiah will be (i)born and die within a the span of 483 years of the date a decree is given to allow Jerusalem to be rebuilt,

Where are you getting 483 years from? I am lost already.

(ii) the same people who 'cut off' (or killed) the Messiah would also destroy the city and temple in Jerusalem,
(iii) sin would be atoned for
(iv) make everlasting righteousness available to everyone

Combing the odds of these events taking place within the alloted time frame yields:
The average population of Bethlehem from the time of Micah (population estimates based on prb.org data) divided by the average population of the earth during the same period = 7,150/2,000,000,000 or 2.8×10^-5.
One man in how many, claiming to be the messiah, born within a specific 483-year time period: 1 in 10,000 or 1×10^-4

You have lost me again. What do these numbers have to do with the odds of anything? The Jews at the time were the only ones with the concept of a messiah so why are you talking about the population of the whole Earth?

One set of people or government in how many who will kill a religious figure, and then destroy the religious epicenter of a religion: 1 in 100 or 1x10^-2

Seems to me that conquers tried to destroy the religion of those they conquered many times in history. According to the Hebrew Bible the Israelites were supposed to destroy the religion of Baal, the religion of their Canaanite enemies. Again I don't know where you are getting your numbers from.

One man in how many, since the time of David, has been crucified?

Your quote from Daniel says nothing about the Messiah getting crucified.

Probability of atoning for sin equates to the probability of one person in total human population at that time who lived a life without sin, and could exchange their righteousness for the sin of others: 1 in 300,000,000 or 0.3x10^-9

And why should we believe the Gospels' claim that Jesus really did do this?

Just combining these 5, we arrive at an astounding unlikely probability of 0.84×10^-24 of all these prophesied events coming to pass as recorded in the Book of Daniel. The probability of any one of these events occuring at all would require a great deal of chance, but for them all to coincide is near mathematical impossibility. That’s 0.84 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Please remember this is 1, out of the over 300 prophecies about the messiah which are in the bible.

That would be impressive if they actually meant anything, but I hope I have shown why this "probabilities" should be taken with a huge grain of salt to say the least.

[H.sapiens]

So the documented instances of people being healed from the HIV virus is just hearsay? What about the well documented instances in the life of George Muller, are these hearsay as well? It is easy to make a claim that everything is hearsay without looking at the actual evidence, it is another thing to look at the evidence for yourself, and still reject it based on personal preference.

What documented instances of people being healed from the HIV virus? References please. It is easy to make claims, rather much harder when you have to support and document wild claims that have no real basis.

[KingandPriest]

So the documented instances of people being healed from the HIV virus is just hearsay? What about the well documented instances in the life of George Muller, are these hearsay as well? It is easy to make a claim that everything is hearsay without looking at the actual evidence, it is another thing to look at the evidence for yourself, and still reject it based on personal preference.

What documented instances of people being healed from the HIV virus? References please. It is easy to make claims, rather much harder when you have to support and document wild claims that have no real basis.

Included in the OP. There were many references provided, but many were ignored.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 65 by KingandPriest]

Post 53 or the OP?

The OP has no links and it was not deliniated where in post 53. It might help to break your posts into smaller segments as smaller footnotes can get lost in such large posts.

Edit: they are the YouTube videos correct?


Here is the story from one such video.



It is a testimony that provides no references. There is no way to verify the story. After investigating by searching for the individual involved and th clinic no results came up. Except for the Facebook story. This hardly qualifies as documentation and reeks of a scam.

I did find this when searching for another miracle patient.

http://ossrea.net/publications/images/uniswa-2014.pdf

If you continue to page 70 in the PDF you will see these churches are actually taking advantage of HIV patents endangering their lives and public safety by convincing them to stop treatment. This is a problem South Africa is facing and because of their freedom of religion law they cannot stop this abhorrent practice.

Thank you though for highlighting the real dangers of certain religious beliefs.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 65 by KingandPriest]

Post 53 or the OP?

The OP has no links and it was not deliniated where in post 53. It might help to break your posts into smaller segments as smaller footnotes can get lost in such large posts.

You are correct, it was in post 53. Thanks for the clarification to all other readers.

Edit: they are the YouTube videos correct?

Yes, some are youtube videos. There are also other cases which are documented in medical journals, but these only include the testimony of people who received subsequent negative test results. A person's testimony would not meet the qualifications of demonstrative evidence. The videos were to display that these individuals were prayed for in the name of Jesus, and then went and were retested. The subsequent test showed a result of negative.

Here is the story from one such video.



It is a testimony that provides no references. There is no way to verify the story. After investigating by searching for the individual involved and the clinic no results came up. Except for the Facebook story. This hardly qualifies as documentation and reeks of a scam.

I did find this when searching for another miracle patient.

http://ossrea.net/publications/images/uniswa-2014.pdf

If you continue to page 70 in the PDF you will see these churches are actually taking advantage of HIV patents endangering their lives and public safety by convincing them to stop treatment. This is a problem South Africa is facing and because of their freedom of religion law they cannot stop this abhorrent practice.

Thank you though for highlighting the real dangers of certain religious beliefs.

I read through the article, and it does not state that these churches are convincing people who had HIV or AIDS to stop treatment. It pointed specifically to one instance where the minister stated that some congregants to stopped taking ARV medication. No where does the article provide evidence that these individuals were told to do so, at the teaching or instruction of the church leadership.

To date, there is no known cure for HIV; ARVs only suppress the replication of HIV in the body and in so doing inhibit progression towards full-blown AIDS. However, some AICs, on the contrary, declare that believers can be instantly ‘cured’ of HIV and AIDS if they profess unwavering faith in Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
...
It is also arguable that advanced marketing strategies in the print and electronic media promote their teachings and practices related to HIV and AIDS treatment, care and support. However, their teachings of non-adherence do not only endanger lives but are an impediment to government efforts to meet Millennium Development Goals of combating HIV/AIDS, malaria and other diseases.
...
Governments allocate and spend colossal budgets in HIV and AIDS prevention, treatment, care and support and, on the other hand, some churches convince members to relinquish ART on the pretext that their faith would heal them. This presents an enormous challenge for governments in Southern Africa in combating HIV
and AIDS and meeting the sixth goal of the MDGs. This article therefore calls on governments and other players to consider developing a social policy that counteracts such deceptive teachings and practices in some AICs.

So the author is upset that individuals who are getting healed are interfering with the governments goal of treating those individuals who have contracted HIV. They identify that some of the deceptive messaging arises from the marketing done by the local print and electronic media. It appears that this article is not interested in whether or not people are actually getting healed, but more about if they are interfering with the goal of the government.

The author even lists multiple links of and promises to address the specific cases mentioned, but never does.

Testimony I: Ernest Angley Ministries
https://www.ernestangley.org/testimonies

Testimony II: Rebirth Family Centre
http://www.drum.co.za/news/kzn-bishop-c ... oly-water/

Testimony III: Synagogue Church of All Nations


Testimonies of this content are common in the PCCs’ live broadcast services as well. In following paragraphs, the article discusses such claim in the light of the public health message.

Instead, he asserts that the practice of telling people they can be healed in the name of Jesus is deceptive and should be stopped, because some people have disseminated false information to the public. Nothing in this article has refuted that those individuals were actually healed, or that it was possible. It only points out that some individuals take on more risky behavior, while in some other cases, interaction with the church actually makes individuals less likely to contract HIV/AIDS because the church supports no sex outside of marriage.

Previous research on religion and HIV and AIDS has described religion as a double-edged sword in HIV prevention - a barrier to HIV transmission and/or aid to HIV transmission. This is because, as much as religious institutions play a titanic role in HIV and AIDS prevention, care and support, the same institutions may – in some cases promote risky behaviours. Denis, for example, observes that religious institutions were the first to institute HIV and AIDS programmes especially in providing care for Orphaned and Vulnerable Children in South Africa (Denis 2009).
By the turn of the millennium, religious institutions became actively engaged with HIV and AIDS especially in education, counselling and support of People Affected and Living with HIV and AIDS. As Kalofonos rightly points out, some churches in central Mozambique claim that prayer is medicinal; prayer heals [including HIV and AIDS].

The author champions the work of the church, and then goes on to create a false narrative about the church in order to argue against the work of various ministries. Without providing any actual evidence of a church leadership directing congregants to stop taking ARV medication, he writes:

This paper contributes to existing studies by exploring harmful religious beliefs, teaching and practices in the backdrop of HIV and AIDS - dissuading desperate people on ARVs to take prescribed medication on the belief that their faith in Jesus Christ would cure them of HIV and AIDS. The paper makes a critical reflection on the understanding of health and well-being against the background of HIV, that is, the position of selected Pentecostal Charismatic Churches (PCCs) against that of Medical Science.

The premise of the paper is that churches are spreading harmful religious beliefs by dissuading people from taking ARV medication. The only thing we have evidence of is the leader of one church admitting that members within his church have told him that they are no longer taking their medication. The author created his own dots, and then linked them to form a unique picture that does not reflect the reality of the healing's included in his own paper.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 67 by KingandPriest]

I am sorry you are under the impression people are actually getting healed? This is not the case and there is no documentation of this being so. Just go look at these various churches claiming to "heal" people. This is no different then Popovich and the sort. These churches should be condemned not praised. They are just after money, not healing people.

Here look at this website:

http://www.nalamandate.com/products.html

Repackaging water oil etc, marketed as faith healing.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 67 by KingandPriest]

They identify that some of the deceptive messaging arises from the marketing done by the local print and electronic media

Like the YouTube channel you visited.... Which contains media from one of the churches.....