Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[onewithhim]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

This thread is not about Russel or Jehovahs Witness history. The topic is paradise. I do believe ( I'm sure a moderator will correct me if I'm wrong) that there are rules against derailling threads so we must, if I am not mistaken, to stay on topic.

I understand we need to remain on topic, but sometimes it is necessary to take a step back and look at where something is coming from.

It would be like saying Christianity is not about whether a man named Jesus Christ actually existed and said the things He is said to have said. It’s like saying, here’s a book – we don’t know where it came from – the history of how it came to be doesn’t matter, but please believe us when we tell you what it means and that you should do what it says. Uuuummmm . . .

I don't know how comments on Charles Taze Russell or early Jehovah's Witnesses belong in this discussion. Aren't we really looking to see what the BIBLE is saying? Let's stick to that.

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

I don't know how comments on Charles Taze Russell or early Jehovah's Witnesses belong in this discussion. Aren't we really looking to see what the BIBLE is saying? Let's stick to that.

The Bible needs interpreted. So, it is very important to establish who is doing the interpreting. Did Charles Taze Russell have that authority? If one interprets Sacred Scripture incorrectly he can arrive at faulty theology. The JW’s are late to the scene, listening to someone who had no authority to speak for Christ.

Jesus told Peter, the first Pope, I give you the keys to kingdom. Jesus told Peter He was the rock upon which His Church would be built and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. So, unless Jesus is a liar, He would not have left His established Church and start a new one in the 19th century.

Also, keep in mind the Church came before the Bible. So, it would be erroneous to think we only need the Bible. God did not just give us the Bible. He gave us His Church & the Bible! So, how about we stick with that.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

I don't know how comments on Charles Taze Russell or early Jehovah's Witnesses belong in this discussion. Aren't we really looking to see what the BIBLE is saying? Let's stick to that.

The Bible needs interpreted. So, it is very important to establish who is doing the interpreting. Did Charles Taze Russell have that authority? If one interprets Sacred Scripture incorrectly he can arrive at faulty theology. The JW’s are late to the scene, listening to someone who had no authority to speak for Christ.

Jesus told Peter, the first Pope, I give you the keys to kingdom. Jesus told Peter He was the rock upon which His Church would be built and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. So, unless Jesus is a liar, He would not have left His established Church and start a new one in the 19th century.

Also, keep in mind the Church came before the Bible. So, it would be erroneous to think we only need the Bible. God did not just give us the Bible. He gave us His Church & the Bible! So, how about we stick with that.

You say that Russell had no authority to speak for Christ. Yet you will accept that Constantine had that right?

It was due to Constantine that the church settled on the idea that Jesus was equal to God. So you take his word for it?

Jesus did not tell Peter that Peter was the Rock. He was referring to HIMSELF as the Rock. (See I Corinthians 10:4) "You are Peter, and upon THIS Rock [gesturing to himself] I will build my church." Jesus was not affiliated with the Roman church, ever. It was that church that fell away from the true faith (see Matthew 7:13,14, 21-23; Matthew 13:24-30, 37-43; Acts 20:29,30; 2Peter 2:1-3).

The Church came before the Bible?? Not so. The Roman church instituted itself after the Bible was written. Also, if you really look up the scriptures I cited above, you can see that what came AFTER the Apostles was not a group of people that actually followed Christ.

The Bible says that the truth about things would be clear IN THE LAST DAYS, or, THE HARVEST SEASON (Daniel 12:4,9; Matthew 13:30,39). That is right in line with people like Brother Russell showing up and bringing Jesus' true church back in focus with the earliest Christians---Jesus and his disciples, through the first century. He led people back to the pure faith, unencumbered by the unbiblical teachings of hell-fire and the Trinity.

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

You say that Russell had no authority to speak for Christ. Yet you will accept that Constantine had that right?

It was due to Constantine that the church settled on the idea that Jesus was equal to God. So you take his word for it?

LOL! Anti-Catholic rhetoric always includes something about Constantine. You do not know your history. Please watch this 3 minute video showing the errors in your claim:

https://www.catholic.com/video/did-the- ... lic-church

Jesus did not tell Peter that Peter was the Rock. He was referring to HIMSELF as the Rock.

Absolutely false. That would be an incorrect reading of Sacred Scripture.

**************

In order to avoid the most common and obvious interpretation of Matthew chapter 16 verse 17 to 19, Protestants devised three new interpretations that would go against what the gospel writer intends to convey. These three new interpretations can be traced back into the time of the time of the Reformers and others are relatively new and totally unheard in the time of the early Church Fathers. Protestants needed to invent or make up new interpretation of Matthew chapter 16 verse 18 in order to get rid of or avoid any understanding that will validate the scriptural proof for the papacy. Despite of have the craft their interpretation the obvious and correct understanding of Matthew chapter 16 cannot simply be do away. In fact majority of biblical scholars Catholics and Protestants agree that Peter is the rock in the gospel of Matthew not Peter’s faith nor Christ who is the builder of the Church upon the rock.

Three Protestant invented interpretations,
1. Peter is just a stone and not a rock
2. Peter’s faith is the rock and not Peter himself
3. Christ is the rock and not Peter

Please click on the link to understand why the JW interpretation couldn’t possibly be right:

https://apologeticessay.wordpress.com/2 ... t-1617-19/

The Church came before the Bible?? Not so.

So.

Jesus Christ instituted His Church. “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I build my church� “I give to you the keys to the kingdom� “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven�

And the Bible as we know it today, was not compiled until the 5th century. Years and years after the Resurrection Christians were guided by the Church without a formal/official Bible. Almost everything was handed down via word of mouth. The Church was where Christians turned for answers.

You need to know your history. Please look further than Watchtower tracts.

The Bible says that the truth about things would be clear IN THE LAST DAYS, or, THE HARVEST SEASON (Daniel 12:4,9; Matthew 13:30,39)[/quotae]

The Bible also tells us no one knows when the last day will be and yet that didn’t stop JW’s from continuing until very recently to predict end times, even though we have been warned against doing so. And Russell as well others within the JW org were all wrong in their predictions.

He led people back to the pure faith, unencumbered by the unbiblical teachings of hell-fire and the Trinity.

Plenty of historical evidence that hell and the Trinity were both believed and taught by the early Church/the first Christians/Christendom from the get go.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1072 by RightReason]

I disagree with your conclusions. I have read as much history, I'm sure, as you have, and I will stand by my resulting beliefs.

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

It is easy to do a Google search to see the claims of the JW’s are unfounded. Here is a link laying out this PR stunt attempted by the JW’s. What they are telling you is simply not true. Please look into the matter.

https://www.livingbreadradio.com/2016/0 ... ic-church/


Those who posit that Constantine founded the Catholic Church either with the Edict of Milan or by calling together the First Council of Nicaea are unable prove their claim. There is no documentation from that time, either explicit or implicit by historian or theologian that even hints that such an event transpired or was the intention of Constantine or the bishops of the Catholic Church to transpire.

This story, most famously told by Jehovah Witnesses and Fundamentalist Protestants, came out of their necessity to support their lie that there was an apostasy in the early Church. It is their way to explain how their reform and late arrival is justifiable.

https://www.livingbreadradio.com/2016/0 ... ic-church/

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1073 by onewithhim]

Apostates and anti-witnesses always want to turn discussions away from the good news onto their lies, it's an old ruse. This thread is about paradise and it would be good if it remained so rather than become a platform for catholic misinformation and hate speech (I am not accusing anyone on this thread of either, I am simply observing that sometimes on the world wide web such things sometimes happen and it would be sad for that to haapeen here). I try not to be sucked into such discussions, after all if someone really wanted accurate information about Jehovah's Witnesses we have a website they can go to.

Mainstream nominal Christians have little to say on the subject of paradise since many I have met don't even believe in it. This is a shame, since it is a wonderful hope God offers mankind... If we don't tell people about the coming earthly paradise, who will?

JW

Go to other posts related to...

CHRISTIANITY, JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES and ...RELIGIOUS TRUTH

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Apostates and anti-witnesses always want to turn discussions away from the good news onto their lies, it's an old ruse. This thread is about paradise and it would be good if it remained so rather than become a platform for catholic misinformation and hate speech (I am not accusing anyone on this thread of either, I am simply observing that sometimes on the world wide web such things sometimes happen and it would be sad for that to haapeen here). I try not to be sucked into such discussions, after all if someone really wanted accurate information about Jehovah's Witnesses we have a website they can go to.

Heretics and anti-Catholics always want to turn discussions away from the good news onto their lies. They reduce the after life to a lacking utopia of apple picking and mansions missing the good news, as revealed to us in Scripture and through Christ's Church, that the beatific vision is much more than that. We can expect more than virgins waiting for us, lush palaces, and swimming with the dolphins. We will get to be with our Lord and God. We will get to see the face of Jesus. We will want for nothing.

If someone wants to make a claim that Constantine is the reason Christians believe Jesus is God, he/she might want to include historical facts proving that claim. It is just anti-Catholic hate speech otherwise. So, yeah when people make statements that are historically inaccurate and based on no evidence, I think it is necessary to point it out, even if their error is off topic.

It is also important to discuss things like where the JW Paradise Earth theory comes from. It is important to know history. It’s important to know where a group is getting their ideas. To know where they came from.

[kcplusdc@yahoo.com]

I look forward to the day when mankind realizes that the tools for creating a new heavan and earth have been right before our eyes this whole time.
We can create paradise here and now.
We can earn it, become enlightened by it, we can watch it grow, giving ourselves to the unity of mandkind, of undertanding and honoring the precious gift of earth.
We can glorify God by embracing his creation with the awe and the love it deserves. Working with the land not against it, we can create a utopian paradise ever changing and progressing into a more perfect expression of his creation and its unbounded potential.

Or on the other hand....

We can be given a paradise without effort, without experience or substance. An endless game of candy land without any loss. No texture, just an endless bliss without value or expectation. A mind numbing perpetual prison of featureless existance. Nothing to work for, nothing to experience, nothing to hope for, just an endless loop of more of the same.
An ever populating, crowded amusement park with no exits, no places to go and no reason to ride any of the attractions as they are all just perfectly and monotonously the same.
An endless life of singing, second verse, same as the first, secon verse same as the first.....

Paradise lost, paradice found, but never paradise given.

[onewithhim]

I look forward to the day when mankind realizes that the tools for creating a new heavan and earth have been right before our eyes this whole time.
We can create paradise here and now.
We can earn it, become enlightened by it, we can watch it grow, giving ourselves to the unity of mandkind, of undertanding and honoring the precious gift of earth.
We can glorify God by embracing his creation with the awe and the love it deserves. Working with the land not against it, we can create a utopian paradise ever changing and progressing into a more perfect expression of his creation and its unbounded potential.

Or on the other hand....

We can be given a paradise without effort, without experience or substance. An endless game of candy land without any loss. No texture, just an endless bliss without value or expectation. A mind numbing perpetual prison of featureless existance. Nothing to work for, nothing to experience, nothing to hope for, just an endless loop of more of the same.
An ever populating, crowded amusement park with no exits, no places to go and no reason to ride any of the attractions as they are all just perfectly and monotonously the same.
An endless life of singing, second verse, same as the first, secon verse same as the first.....

Paradise lost, paradice found, but never paradise given.

You are right---humans could take care of the earth and find endless joy and satisfaction in doing so. But they haven't done that. They have wrecked much of the earth, and God will "bring to ruin those that are ruining the earth" (Revelation 11:18).

I don't understand what you say about "Paradise given." I have seen that the Bible tells us that we will have the privilege of taking up where Adam left off when he rebelled. We will be able to work hard to take care of the earth and everything on it, and we won't find it drudgery. That was God's plan in the beginning. I don't understand just what you are describing, because it doesn't compute with my Bible-trained knowledge of what God is going to do.

The Bible says that we will be in harmony with the animals, and to me that indicates that we would certainly be taking care of them, which will be fun. "The wolf will reside with the lamb, and with the kid the leopard will lie down, and the calf and the lion will be together; and a little boy will lead them. The cow and the bear will feed together, and their young will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like the bull. The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra, and a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake. They will not cause any harm or any ruin in all my holy mountain, because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters cover the sea." (ISAIAH 11:6-9)

WE will find satisfying work: "They will build houses and live in them, and they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage....They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bear children for distress..." (ISAIAH 65:21-23)

What makes you think that we will have everything handed to us? I don't get that out of what the Bible says at all.