Paradise on Earth

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bluegreenearth
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Post by bluegreenearth »

onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 1105 by bluegreenearth]

Do you ever wonder why people reach toward the hope of going to heaven when everything they love to do and see are here on Earth? I've heard people say that they will love to smell the roses in heaven, but there are no plants in heaven. The conditions they love are HERE on the earth. Jesus spoke of heaven to his relatively few disciples who would rule with him in heaven. The majority of mankind was not given this hope. All of the people who died before Jesus came will live on the earth when they are resurrected, and the majority of people alive today will also. Jesus will rule from heaven with his co-rulers, and who will they rule over? The majority of mankind.

Those righteously disposed will inherit the earth and live on it forever. (Psalm 37: 9,29; Matthew 5:5)
Nothing sinister about that plot at all.

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onewithhim
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Post by onewithhim »

sorrento wrote: [Replying to post 1134 by PinSeeker]

Thank you for your reply PinSeeker. Being an atheist I don't believe in life after death. Countless people have died, but there is not one shred of evidence that any of them are now living somewhere in either a state of eternal bliss or eternal torment.
Your suggestion that maybe those enjoying paradise might look in a different light at those they loved on earth, who are now suffering torment.
I would hate to think that if I was a believer that I could become a being that could cast aside probably the purest thing a person being can experience, the mutual love and respect of another human being. It seems to be saying, I am in paradise because I am worthy, you are suffering because you are not worthy.
The love I have for my family and friends is unconditional. They don't demand that I love and respect them nor do I demand they love and respect me.
The god Christians believe in demands love and respect, the first two commandments make that very clear, but the love returned is conditional and failing to meet those conditions has dire consequences.
There are many reasons why I have no desire to follow the path of Christianity.
To believe in a being that condemns people to eternal suffering for simply not believing is one of those reasons.
I have my own little paradise right here, right now on earth and until my years are up, that will do for me.
I have to say that I believe the Bible and I do not believe in "life after death," that is---the continual living of a person, though he is dead, in a spirit realm. I remember that it was Satan's lie that humans would "surely NOT DIE," in spite of what God had said. (Genesis 3:4) Sadly, almost every single religion in the world believes Satan's lie, and they teach the on-going life of the person in spirit form. This is a LIE and if a person is open to new thoughts, the Bible will show that person that no human goes on living after he dies.

I agree with you.....why would a loving person cast aside their love for you just because they died? The whole idea of a person still living after they died, with no clear way to communicate with anybody (charlatans notwithstanding), is nonsensical.

Another point that has to go in God's favor: The Bible does not teach a fiery hell where people are roasted in horrible agony forever! That is from the imagination of selfish, sadistic, controlling men striving to gain and hang on to power over people. You'd be surprised at how the Bible unfolds pure truth, if you would look at it without the brain-washing results of centuries of false teaching from the various religions.

Truth: (1) There is no "immortal soul." (2) There is no hell-fire where people are consciously tortured without end.

"The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

If you want to, check out www.jw.org where there is a lot of truth.


:study:

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onewithhim
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Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 1139 by bluegreenearth]

Thank you. Reading your comment has given me even more of a peaceful feeling as I wind down my day. :D

sorrento
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Post by sorrento »

[Replying to post 1138 by RightReason]

PinSeeker, you said, "What if you had a friend or family member who didn’t want your love? What if they wanted nothing to do with you? Will you force them to come to your house and stay with you? And what if you did bring them into your home and they did not show you or others you love respect? Would you not tell them they are welcome, but only if they respect you and your home? Is that not fair/just?"
As I said before, I cannot make anyone show love and respect. Unfortunately, we have in our family a person who is a chronic alcoholic. When in the horrors of alcohol she says the most hurtful and disrespectful things imaginable and there is not a family member who has not felt the lash of a vicious tongue. But we have never given up trying to help, we have never ostracised her and even when we think we have helped her beat her addiction, only for her to fall off the wagon yet again, we still support her. And just in case you suggest we pray to god to help her, those in the family with a religious nature have prayed for her so often that their knees are raw. The love we have for her is unconditional, we do not say we are going to punish you because of your behaviour.

I said that one of the reasons I rejected Christianity was that the Christian god punished people with eternal torment for simply not believing. You said that was nothing more than a nice rationalization for rejecting Christianity, one that was not well thought out.
Well, without even taking into consideration all the other improbabilities and impossibilities associated with the Christian belief system, I think that reason on its own is more than enough!

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JehovahsWitness
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Post by JehovahsWitness »

sorrento wrote:
I said that one of the reasons I rejected Christianity was that the Christian god punished people with eternal torment for simply not believing.

Did you never study the bible with Jehovah's Witnesses who can explain from the bible that the Christian God does not punished people with eternal torment ?

WHY IT MATTERS
Cruelty does not endear us to God; it repels us. “From infancy I was taught the doctrine of hellfire,� says Rocío, who lives in Mexico. “I was so terrified that I could not imagine that God had any good qualities. I thought that he was angry and intolerant.�

The Bible’s clear statements about God’s judgments and the condition of the dead changed the way Rocío viewed God. “I felt free​—that a big emotional burden had been lifted off me,� she says. “I began to trust that God wants the best for us, that he loves us, and that I can love him. He is like a father who takes his children by the hand and wants the best for them.�​—Isaiah 41:13.
Read the full article HERE
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... ruel-hell/

Image
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

sorrento
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Post by sorrento »

[Replying to post 1143 by JehovahsWitness]
Judging by the comments of some Christians on this subject, it would appear that they disagree with you, that hell is indeed a reality and a place of suffering.
The bible does mention hell several times as being a place where the wicked are punished.
Luke 16:23
Luke 12:5
Matt 13:50
Matt 16:18
Matt23:33

sorrento
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Post by sorrento »

I addressed my post 1142 to PinSeeker when it should have been addressed to RightReason. My apologies. My bad!

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

sorrento wrote: [Replying to post 1143 by JehovahsWitness]

The bible does mention hell several times as being a place where the wicked are punished.

Matt 16:18
MATTHEW 16:18

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.- New International Version

Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it. - New Living Translation

I will build my congregation, and the gates of the Grave will not overpower it. - NWT
Could you explain what in Matthew 16:18 that leads you to conclude that "hell" (Greek hades) is {quote} "place where the wicked are punished"?




Thanks,

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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onewithhim
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Post by onewithhim »

sorrento wrote: [Replying to post 1143 by JehovahsWitness]
Judging by the comments of some Christians on this subject, it would appear that they disagree with you, that hell is indeed a reality and a place of suffering.
The bible does mention hell several times as being a place where the wicked are punished.
Luke 16:23
Luke 12:5
Matt 13:50
Matt 16:18
Matt23:33
The Bible has been badly misrepresented by people who have had an agenda to advance their own interests. Luke 16 has been used to show that hell-fire is real when Jesus was using metaphor and/or hyperbole to illustrate a certain point. All of what he said there about the rich man and Lazarus was not to be taken literally. Could a man really see and talk to someone in heaven if he was in hell? Could a single drop of water actually cool his tongue if he was being tormented in a literal fire? Was the rich man in hell because he was rich? What exactly is "Abraham's bosom"?

No, the parable was a metaphor to make the point that the Pharisees were shirking their job of teaching God's truth to the people---"Lazarus"---thereby forcing the common people to be satisfied with crumbs rather than the banquet of all of God's truth that they should be getting. The Rich Man died and was in "hell." A studious examination of the Scriptures reveals to us that "hell" is the grave. That means, in this scenario, that the Rich Man---the Pharisees---had died to their former position before God and were found wanting. The Lazarus common man had also died to their former situation and had listened to Jesus and accepted him, thus gaining favor before God.

The fire that tormented the "Rich Man" was simply a symbol of the Pharisees' actual torment of hearing Jesus expose their hypocrisy, and their fear of losing their position of authority over the common people. For anyone to tell you that the story is literal, they are revealing their shallow understanding of the Scriptures.

LUKE 12:5 does not mention "hell." The Greek word for "hell" is HADES. Luke 12 does not use the word "Hades." There we find the word "GEHENNA." Translators have rendered "Hades" and "Gehenna" to both mean "hell" but they are different words entirely. Gehenna was a garbage dump that continually burned, where garbage and even bodies of criminals were thrown. Jesus referred to that dump as a symbol of what would happen to wicked people in the end---they would be completely eradicated, obliterated, as if set fire to. He was not speaking about a literal conflagration. What happens when you set fire to a piece of paper? It becomes non-existent, right? That is what he was referring to, not a literal place where people would be roasted forever. What sadistic thought!!

MATTHEW 13:50 is yet another metaphor. No one will literally be thrown into a furnace. The parable refers to the mental torment that the wicked will suffer because of being exposed by the Truth, and their subsequent annihilation (as if burned up in a fire).

MATTHEW 16:18 here mentions "Hades," the common grave of mankind. No reference to a fire that roasts people. What would Jesus have meant by saying that "the gates of Hades will not overpower" his church? We know that "Hades" refers to the grave, so Jesus was obviously speaking about death. He was saying that his church would avoid the "gates of death," poetically referring to the inability of his church to be destroyed.

MATTHEW 23:33 again refers to "Gehenna" (annihilation) and not "Hades" (the grave). Many Bibles render "Gehenna" as "hell" here, as they do at Matt.5:22,29,30, and Matt.10:28; 18:9; 23:15, but that is not correct. As I said, "hell" is "Hades," and means the grave. "Gehenna" refers to complete annihilation. You can find Bible versions that keep the Greek words Hades and Gehenna where they should be, thus eliminating the confusion that many versions propagate by translating three different words as all the same.

They say that "Hades" is translated "hell."
They say that "Gehenna" is translated "hell."
They say that "Tartarus" (2Peter 2:4) is translated "hell."

They are three different words with three different meanings. Do you see how the whole idea of a hell-fire where people are roasted like pigs on a spit has been perpetuated---and falsely?


:study:

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PinSeeker
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Post by PinSeeker »

sorrento wrote: Thank you for your reply PinSeeker. Being an atheist I don't believe in life after death.
Well, then maybe you should make your way over to the apologetics forum.
sorrento wrote: Countless people have died, but there is not one shred of evidence that any of them are now living somewhere in either a state of eternal bliss or eternal torment.
If you live in the United States, and there was a crime committed in, say, Italy, but there is no evidence of it in the United States, does that then mean there was no crime committed in Italy? No, of course not, that's absurd, right? By the same token, lack of evidence in the natural world of the supernatural does not mean the supernatural does not exist. To require evidence of the supernatural within the bounds of the natural is unreasonable. But to each his own.
sorrento wrote: I would hate to think that if I was a believer that I could become a being that could cast aside probably the purest thing a person being can experience, the mutual love and respect of another human being.
I realize it's inadvertent on your part, but your idea of what is pure is far too small, too low.
sorrento wrote: It seems to be saying, I am in paradise because I am worthy, you are suffering because you are not worthy.
But yet the Bible teaches that only God is worthy, and ours is a position of praise for Him in all things, the biggest being salvation itself, for which we are all unworthy. And that means humanly speaking, none of us are are more worthy or any "better" than any other.
sorrento wrote: The god Christians believe in demands love and respect, the first two commandments make that very clear...
Yes, but that is because God, as the Creator, desires the best for each of us and our complete joy. Yes, He says, in effect, "Glorify me!" so that He then gives His glory to us. The only way we can be completely satisfied and have complete joy is if our satisfaction and joy is completely in Him.
sorrento wrote: ...the love returned is conditional and failing to meet those conditions has dire consequences. There are many reasons why I have no desire to follow the path of Christianity. To believe in a being that condemns people to eternal suffering for simply not believing is one of those reasons.
Well, the grace is that we have any chance at all, because none of us deserves it. But yet it is offered to us freely. If you were starving, and someone offered you food, and you believed it to be rotten and therefore decline and then die of starvation, whose fault is it?
sorrento wrote: I have my own little paradise right here, right now on earth and until my years are up, that will do for me.
I understand.

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