Paradise on Earth

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sorrento
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Post by sorrento »

[Replying to post 1148 by PinSeeker]

PinSeeker, you said. "If you live in the United States, and there was a crime committed in, say, Italy, but there is no evidence of it in the United States, does that then mean there was no crime committed in Italy? No, of course not, that's absurd, right? By the same token, lack of evidence in the natural world of the supernatural does not mean the supernatural does not exist. To require evidence of the supernatural within the bounds of the natural is unreasonable. But to each his own."

Your US, Italy crime scenario is indeed absurd, so I don't know why you mentioned it.
However, the United States and Italy are real places and it is not difficult to demonstrate that they are real places. The same goes for the world we live in. Where you have difficulty is in demonstrating the existence of the supernatural world. Saying that it is unreasonable to ask for evidence of the supernatural is a total cop-out. If you can provide evidence of the supernatural, go ahead, but until then I will regard any claim of such as nothing more than superstition.

You also said, "I realize it's inadvertent on your part, but your idea of what is pure is far too small, too low."

Well, I'm sorry if my idea of what is pure doesn't come up to your expectation, but that is the kind of arrogant comment I have come to expect from certain types of Christians.
As for the rest of your post about your god, that also comes under the heading
"superstition" as far as I'm concerned.
But to each his own. I understand.
See, I can be patronizing too!

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PinSeeker
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Post by PinSeeker »

sorrento wrote: Your US, Italy crime scenario is indeed absurd, so I don't know why you mentioned it.
Because, sorrento, I was merely making a point. Lack of evidence for something does not necessarily mean that thing does not exist.
sorrento wrote: Saying that it is unreasonable to ask for evidence of the supernatural is a total cop-out.
But I didn't say that. I said, in a manner of speaking, if you think there is a lack of evidence, then earnestly seek it. God says, "If you seek, you will find."

And with all due respect, if you think there isn't evidence for something and you just quit, then isn't that a cop-out? Or maybe just sort of defeatist? I say it is, but that's just me. Think of all the scientists that have made great discoveries over the centuries despite great difficulty. What if they had just given up?
sorrento wrote: If you can provide evidence of the supernatural, go ahead, but until then I will regard any claim of such as nothing more than superstition.
I can provide you all the evidence I think anyone could ever ask for, but it's probably not evidence that you would accept. It's like telling you I just saw the best movie ever made, but until you go see it and experience it for yourself, you will never agree.
sorrento wrote: Well, I'm sorry if my idea of what is pure doesn't come up to your expectation, but that is the kind of arrogant comment I have come to expect from certain types of Christians.
I don't expect anything, sorrento. Nothing. So, no need to apologize. I'm just saying your idea of what is really pure is far less than God's. So is mine, for that matter, because, like you, I am merely human. However, I understand that God's ideas about things are far, far higher than mine (or that of any human being). But that doesn't mean we can't start to think about things on a much higher plane; we can.
sorrento wrote: As for the rest of your post about your god, that also comes under the heading
"superstition" as far as I'm concerned.
But to each his own. I understand.
See, I can be patronizing too!
Well, I wasn't being patronizing... unless you want to also say I was being patronizing to myself, which would be a bit of a silly thought. Your accusation of me being patronizing seems to me really a sort of defense mechanism. No, I'm just like you; ergo, I understand.

Grace and peace to you.

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onewithhim
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Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 1149 by sorrento]

Sorrento, do you have any comment on my post #1147?

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JehovahsWitness
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Post by JehovahsWitness »

onewithhim wrote:
sorrento wrote: [Replying to post 1143 by JehovahsWitness]
Judging by the comments of some Christians on this subject, it would appear that they disagree with you, that hell is indeed a reality and a place of suffering.
The bible does mention hell several times as being a place where the wicked are punished.
Luke 16:23
Luke 12:5
Matt 13:50
Matt 16:18
Matt23:33
The Bible has been badly misrepresented by people who have had an agenda to advance their own interests. Luke 16 has been used to show that hell-fire is real when Jesus was using metaphor and/or hyperbole to illustrate a certain point. All of what he said there about the rich man and Lazarus was not to be taken literally. Could a man really see and talk to someone in heaven if he was in hell? Could a single drop of water actually cool his tongue if he was being tormented in a literal fire? Was the rich man in hell because he was rich? What exactly is "Abraham's bosom"?

No, the parable was a metaphor to make the point that the Pharisees were shirking their job of teaching God's truth to the people---"Lazarus"---thereby forcing the common people to be satisfied with crumbs rather than the banquet of all of God's truth that they should be getting. The Rich Man died and was in "hell." A studious examination of the Scriptures reveals to us that "hell" is the grave. That means, in this scenario, that the Rich Man---the Pharisees---had died to their former position before God and were found wanting. The Lazarus common man had also died to their former situation and had listened to Jesus and accepted him, thus gaining favor before God.

The fire that tormented the "Rich Man" was simply a symbol of the Pharisees' actual torment of hearing Jesus expose their hypocrisy, and their fear of losing their position of authority over the common people. For anyone to tell you that the story is literal, they are revealing their shallow understanding of the Scriptures.

LUKE 12:5 does not mention "hell." The Greek word for "hell" is HADES. Luke 12 does not use the word "Hades." There we find the word "GEHENNA." Translators have rendered "Hades" and "Gehenna" to both mean "hell" but they are different words entirely. Gehenna was a garbage dump that continually burned, where garbage and even bodies of criminals were thrown. Jesus referred to that dump as a symbol of what would happen to wicked people in the end---they would be completely eradicated, obliterated, as if set fire to. He was not speaking about a literal conflagration. What happens when you set fire to a piece of paper? It becomes non-existent, right? That is what he was referring to, not a literal place where people would be roasted forever. What sadistic thought!!

MATTHEW 13:50 is yet another metaphor. No one will literally be thrown into a furnace. The parable refers to the mental torment that the wicked will suffer because of being exposed by the Truth, and their subsequent annihilation (as if burned up in a fire).

MATTHEW 16:18 here mentions "Hades," the common grave of mankind. No reference to a fire that roasts people. What would Jesus have meant by saying that "the gates of Hades will not overpower" his church? We know that "Hades" refers to the grave, so Jesus was obviously speaking about death. He was saying that his church would avoid the "gates of death," poetically referring to the inability of his church to be destroyed.

MATTHEW 23:33 again refers to "Gehenna" (annihilation) and not "Hades" (the grave). Many Bibles render "Gehenna" as "hell" here, as they do at Matt.5:22,29,30, and Matt.10:28; 18:9; 23:15, but that is not correct. As I said, "hell" is "Hades," and means the grave. "Gehenna" refers to complete annihilation. You can find Bible versions that keep the Greek words Hades and Gehenna where they should be, thus eliminating the confusion that many versions propagate by translating three different words as all the same.

They say that "Hades" is translated "hell."
They say that "Gehenna" is translated "hell."
They say that "Tartarus" (2Peter 2:4) is translated "hell."

They are three different words with three different meanings. Do you see how the whole idea of a hell-fire where people are roasted like pigs on a spit has been perpetuated---and falsely?


:study:

I don't think there's much to day, you summed up the meaning of the various Greek words well. Fire is equated with eternal torture, not because of scripture so much as because of the influence of pagan religious thinking adopted by all (or nearly all) of the churches of Christendom.


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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onewithhim
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Post by onewithhim »

I'm wondering why more people don't take to heart The many passages in the Bible that describe what life on Earth will be like after Jesus comes back. There is so much information in the Scriptures about a paradise Earth where people will live forever, yet it is basically ignored by most people. Can someone explain to me why these beautiful passages are ignored, even by clergy people?

Isaiah 9:6,7
Isaiah 11:6-9
Micah 4:4
Psalm 37:9-11 and 29
Daniel 2:44

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bluegreenearth
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Post by bluegreenearth »

onewithhim wrote: I'm wondering why more people don't take to heart The many passages in the Bible that describe what life on Earth will be like after Jesus comes back. There is so much information in the Scriptures about a paradise Earth where people will live forever, yet it is basically ignored by most people. Can someone explain to me why these beautiful passages are ignored, even by clergy people?

Isaiah 9:6,7
Isaiah 11:6-9
Micah 4:4
Psalm 37:9-11 and 29
Daniel 2:44
Why would you want to live forever?

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marco
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Post by marco »

onewithhim wrote: I'm wondering why more people don't take to heart The many passages in the Bible that describe what life on Earth will be like after Jesus comes back. There is so much information in the Scriptures about a paradise Earth where people will live forever, yet it is basically ignored by most people. Can someone explain to me why these beautiful passages are ignored, even by clergy people?

Isaiah 9:6,7
Isaiah 11:6-9
Micah 4:4
Psalm 37:9-11 and 29
Daniel 2:44
Many people take these things are nice writing, but figurative fictions as regards their interpretation of things to come.
They are poems, just as are the poems of the Latin poet Tibullus on the golden age of the earth before there were highways, and no swords but ploughshares. His is a poem of a fabulous past; the verses depict an equally fictitious future, however prettily expressed.

The dream and its interpretation by Daniel, with Nebuchadnezzar threatening death, is an interesting story that supports many figurative interpretations. Few would take it literally.

The following passage:

"Everyone will sit under their own vine and under their own fig tree,
and no one will make them afraid, for the Lord Almighty has spoken" is a poetic rendering of communism. Burns put it better:

Then let us pray that come it may, as come it will, for a' that; that man to man the world o'er, shall brothers be for a' that." Burns was no prophet.


There are dreamers in the past, and poets, and doubtlessss we shall have them in the future. God bless them. They allow us to smile.

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onewithhim
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Post by onewithhim »

bluegreenearth wrote:
onewithhim wrote: I'm wondering why more people don't take to heart The many passages in the Bible that describe what life on Earth will be like after Jesus comes back. There is so much information in the Scriptures about a paradise Earth where people will live forever, yet it is basically ignored by most people. Can someone explain to me why these beautiful passages are ignored, even by clergy people?

Isaiah 9:6,7
Isaiah 11:6-9
Micah 4:4
Psalm 37:9-11 and 29
Daniel 2:44
Why would you want to live forever?
I find great delight in my family and being able to be with them and interact with them for all time is something I cherish. Why would anyone want that to end?

In addition to that, I love everything on this planet that God made for us to enjoy. All these things are endless. There is so much to learn.

Getting to know my ancestors will be quite a trip! I can hardly wait! And getting to know everybody that ever lived will be SO interesting. .....Rameses II, Attila the Hun, Montezuma, Noah, Elijah, King David, Rudolph Valentino, all the victims of the eruption of Vesuvius, passengers lost on the Titanic, Jack the Ripper's victims, and I could go on and on.

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bluegreenearth
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Post by bluegreenearth »

onewithhim wrote:
bluegreenearth wrote:
onewithhim wrote: I'm wondering why more people don't take to heart The many passages in the Bible that describe what life on Earth will be like after Jesus comes back. There is so much information in the Scriptures about a paradise Earth where people will live forever, yet it is basically ignored by most people. Can someone explain to me why these beautiful passages are ignored, even by clergy people?

Isaiah 9:6,7
Isaiah 11:6-9
Micah 4:4
Psalm 37:9-11 and 29
Daniel 2:44
Why would you want to live forever?
I find great delight in my family and being able to be with them and interact with them for all time is something I cherish. Why would anyone want that to end?

In addition to that, I love everything on this planet that God made for us to enjoy. All these things are endless. There is so much to learn.

Getting to know my ancestors will be quite a trip! I can hardly wait! And getting to know everybody that ever lived will be SO interesting. .....Rameses II, Attila the Hun, Montezuma, Noah, Elijah, King David, Rudolph Valentino, all the victims of the eruption of Vesuvius, passengers lost on the Titanic, Jack the Ripper's victims, and I could go on and on.
What are you going to do after you've completed all those things on your list?

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brunumb
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Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 1156 by onewithhim]
I find great delight in my family and being able to be with them and interact with them for all time is something I cherish.
Have you considered the logistics of the afterlife in heaven? What will you and your family look like? Will everyone still have those features you recognise and treasure? What use will there be for your excretory system or your reproductive organs? What age will everyone be? Will your parents want to be older than you but at the same time younger than their parents? And on it goes. There are so many issues that make the afterlife so complicated and, to me, an impossibility. Will you just brush all of them aside with a strong dose of God-magic? You mention all of the knowledge you could gain. Of what value will any of it be in a perfect world where you have no wants and needs?
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

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