Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

You think wrong, I\'m sorry to say. When the Bible Students realized that not everybody wanted to go to heaven, they became aware of the earthly fulfillment of promises in the Bible

Onewithhim, how do you not see what you’re doing as buying into the Watchtower propaganda? It doesn’t strike you as odd for someone to say as soon as there was a need (ie: they discovered some people did not want to go to heaven) the JW’s became aware of certain Bible passages? There is so much to unpack there.

First, to not recognize the 144,000 was soon to be a problem for the JW’s and second to believe that not all believers would want to be in heaven with God, and third to accept that prior to all of this the JW’s had not fully understood the Bible, but when there was a need to solve the problem of their erroneous literal interpretation of 144,000 or to provide their followers with an eternity to their liking, they confessed they hadn’t properly understood Scripture until now and now that they do they cherry pick some verses they think can help sell the whole thing. All of that doesn’t seem a little sketch to you?.

Now, a proper understanding of Sacred Scripture does not deny we shall see a new heaven and earth. This is of course true, as based on many of the passages you cite. It just does not claim it will be like the way the JW’s sell it. In fact, we are repeatedly told, it will be unlike anything we can imagine. Some of the things JW’s get wrong, in this new universe that will occur, God will have His dwelling among men. Why anyone would rather dwell with lions, and tigers, and bears than with God is beyond me. The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to us, will be eternal happiness, peace, and mutual communion. This is what we are told. Heaven and the New Earth will be the same ‘place,’ since heaven will come down to earth, and God’s dwelling will be with men, and He will live with them.

The total number of 144,000 hasn\'t been completed even to this day.

Well, no wonder ‘yall don’t sell it accurately. You act like the way The Simpson’s cartoon depicts heaven – it will be this place with harp music where everyone just stands around bored out of their minds with nothing to do. Gee, wonder why you can’t get any takers. You miss it! You completely miss the beatific vision! When we get to heaven (the new heaven & earth – the new universe) it will be far beyond some unpolluted earth. Be prepared to not necessarily find the same things enjoyable or un-enjoyable. You mention on paradise earth we shall get to play with our grandchildren. Uuumm . . . won’t my grandchildren now have grandchildren of their own? Will I be playing with my 95 year old grandchildren? Do you think there will be eternal 4 year olds running around paradise earth? We desire and long for sex here on earth because we long to love and be loved, but can you not imagine a love bigger than orgasm in heaven? I can.

144,000 was not to be interpreted literally. But once Charles Taze Russell, a part from Christ’s Church, made that error, he had to go on to continually twist Scripture to fit his initial false understanding. Of course, as I continue to ask in any thread I post in, the bigger issue is how/why would/could someone believe some guy on his own, 1000 years after Christ walked the earth, has the authority to take it upon himself to interpret the Bible (which, by the way, was given to him by my Church). He obviously trusted my Church enough to accept the Bible and to recognize the Church had the authority to give it to us all, but then he didn’t think the Church had the authority to interpret it? That doesn’t make sense. And who the heck was Charles Taze Russell? Why in the world should anyone listen to him?

People that hoped to live on the earth forever started speaking up about it back in the 1930s, and the "great crowd" was realized.

So, a bunch a people who were afraid of dying, and especially who were afraid of dying a JW because they were told only 144,000 of them get to heaven, started pushing back, many probably leaving or thinking what’s the point, and suddenly the JW’s got woke and realized if they just twist a few more Biblical passages, they can claim, “We have seen the light! We missed it the first time, but it has just been brought to our intention (in 1930) that we don’t have to worry about being one of the 144,000 – there might not be room for all of us in heaven (for spirits take up an awful lot of space) but there will be plenty of room for all of us in Hawaii—uuh we mean paradise earth. You won’t be with God, but no worries you can live forever with your 3 earthly kids, who will be an eternal six years old, or whatever age you liked them the best while they were on earth , and your house will be even better than Chip and Joanna Gaines. And you’ll get to play with tigers too!� So, the witnesses said, “Sign me up! The best things right now are beautiful homes, eating, and sex. We can’t imagine pleasure beyond those things, so I’m cool for more of the same, minus venereal disease and all.�

Gradually there came to be more people wanting to live on Earth rather than go to heaven.
Today there are 8 million JWs that have the earthly hope.

I seriously do not know what to make of this. Other than, clearly they do not understand the beatific vision and what awaits us.

May I ask.....What is there about being in heaven that you would prefer instead of playing with your grandkids in a your beautiful backyard with animals (that won\'t hurt them); sparkling pools; fruit trees unplagued by disease or birds or bugs; continuing on with whatever your favorite projects are; welcoming back loved ones and ancestors from the grave [b:733aff8c90][u:733aff8c90]and physically hugging them[/u:733aff8c90][/b:733aff8c90]?

Oh gosh. Where do I begin? Wouldn’t my kids be grandparents themselves? Will I be playing in the back yard with my 95 year old son? I owned a pool. We started using it less and less. Can’t really see how stamp collecting will have much meaning in eternity? What will all those scientists looking for a cure for cancer work on? Clearly, you misunderstand what heaven is AND what the new earth shall be. We will have glorified bodies – they won’t be exactly like our bodies now. Some theologians even suggest we won’t need food, or have to go to the bathroom, or still do things like we do now. The point is we don’t know. You seem to be unable to imagine much beyond what we can already know, but we are told it will be beyond all of this. You seem to be afraid you would be unhappy if you couldn’t play with your grandchildren or couldn’t have sex or couldn’t enjoy ice cream, but the point is what we do know about heaven is that we will be completely happy/fulfilled. We will be beyond satisfied/satiated. When a person feels entirely full/satisfied/fulfilled they don’t need a mansion with hundreds of rooms.

what do you envision DOING in heaven that would be better and more interesting than what you could do here on the earth?

You cannot be serious? Well, I really hope I can imagine more than this place. I love my life, but don’t you get it? All the things here we love/enjoy pale in comparison to what awaits us. Our spouses, our children, our pets, our homes, even the best tasting food we ever eat down here will be nothing like what we can expect in the hereafter. Half the things we do down here are due to our longing for what’s up there. We long to love and be loved here, because God is love. So, even the best relationship we have down here, it is imperfect. It leaves us for all our days here longing for that perfect love that awaits us. Why in the world should we expect more of the same? We were meant to be with our Lord.

ca you explain the above Scriptures? They seem to be speaking about life on the earth, and not in heaven.

I absolutely can and already have to some extent. JW’s take literal what is not meant as literal and they misinterpret, twist, etc. other stuff. A new heaven and earth does not mean one place for spirits and God and the rest of us reside in cleaned up planet earth. That is an incorrect interpretation and one JW’s make without authority to do so.

The Bible existed long before JW’s got their hands on it. Why do you think you should listen to the JW’s? Because they tell you something you think sounds nice? You get to spend eternity in Disneyland and if you renounce God you won’t go to hell, you’ll just cease to be? Can’t you imagine better than an eternal Disney Land? You don’t think the creator of the universe can do better than that? Heck, there might even be other creatures on other planets that we’ll find out about. We have been told there is so much we don’t know nor can imagine. Why do JW’s hold such a narrow, specific possibility?

And kind of like one of the excerpts from an article in a previous post explains, it’s kind of like a kid saying, “I wouldn’t want to have sex if I couldn’t eat candy during sex�. For the kid, eating candy is the ultimate pleasure, so he is unable to imagine that there could be a greater pleasure where he will not want/desire candy. And yet that is what I’m saying. Your entire premise is, “Who wouldn’t want to live on a paradise earth?� sounding very similar to the kid thinking why would anyone want to have sex if there is candy. I wouldn’t want to live on a paradise earth (at least the JW depiction) because I know there is more. I was made for more. I might not understand what that more is yet, but I can at least recognize there is more.

You're not reading what I wrote accurately. I never said that the Bible Students were NOT AWARE of Scriptures. I said that the ones taking the lead, like Brother Rutherford, were not immediately aware of the number of people at that time who didn't WANT to go to heaven. The brothers thought that everyone looked forward to going to heaven. They BECAME AWARE of the fact that many people had the EARTHLY hope.

The rest of your post is just ranting against what the Bible teaches with the same old arguments, so it won't solve anything to go around and around with you even more. There has been a PLETHORA of explanations, with Scriptural backing, over the years on these threads to show that what we teach is right on the money.

I have explained a few times before about how God is not going to come down here to this little planet and live here, but he will continue to rule the universe from where he resides NOW, and that his promise to "reside with mankind" has the same meaning as that phrase has ALWAYS had since he spoke to the Israelites in the wilderness. Not that he will LITERALLY be here amongst humans, but his attention will surely be with us. Did he literally come down here when he said this?.........

To Jacob: "I myself shall go down with you to Egypt..." (Genesis 46:4)

To Israel: "You must not defile the land in which you are dwelling, in the midst of which I am residing; for I Jehovah am residing in the midst of the sons of Israel." (Numbers 35:36)


Was God being LITERAL? We would have to say no. Just like Jesus wasn't being literal at Matthew 28:20. And Revelation (Apocalypse) 21:1-3 isn't being literal either. It has the same meaning as what God said to Israel in ancient times.

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

You're not reading what I wrote accurately. I never said that the Bible Students were NOT AWARE of Scriptures. I said that the ones taking the lead, like Brother Rutherford, were not immediately aware of the number of people at that time who didn't WANT to go to heaven. The brothers thought that everyone looked forward to going to heaven. They BECAME AWARE of the fact that many people had the EARTHLY hope.

No, pretty sure I got it right. The only way people would have not wanted to go to heaven would be because they hold an immature and or erroneous view about what heaven is. This is something that would have needed to have been taught. Has that thought really never crossed your mind?

Let me ask you, why you wouldn’t want to be where God is? Why would you be satisfied with bushels of apples and mansions? Don’t you think when you really think about it that seems kind of silly? How is it not unlike those of the Islam faith who tell their people that 72 virgins await them when they die, as if the greatest/ultimate pleasure these young men can imagine is being able to have a whole lot of sex? How is the JW paradise earth notion not unlike that?

It is reducing the beatific vision to a bunch of earthly pleasures, which is just disappointing. Again, because we should understand that these earthly pleasures pale in comparison to what we are to expect. Scripture tells us this and so many Saints have revealed this to us as well. There have been Saints who have been privileged to have received a vision of heaven and they all said the most sparkly diamonds we could ever see on earth look dull and ugly compared to the sparkle and clarity of the diamonds in heaven. They say the brightest white we can imagine seeing is nothing compared to the dazzling white one experiences in heaven. We think 20/20 vision is amazing on our hi def t.v.’s? Wait. Just wait how things will look in heaven. But you want earthly diamonds. <sigh>

The rest of your post is just ranting against what the Bible teaches with the same old arguments

Like what? My post explained the very same passages you say suggests your paradise earth can be demonstrated to actually mean a new heaven/earth not just Los Angeles minus the fog.

There has been a PLETHORA of explanations, with Scriptural backing, over the years on these threads to show that what we teach is right on the money.

Ha, ha, ha . . . I would suggest there has been a plethora of explanations, with Scriptural backing, over the years on these threads that show JW teaching to be far from on the money. I would also suggest there have been a plethora of explanations demonstrating the JW’s don’t even have the authority to interpret Scripture –and that’s kind of important.

I have explained a few times before about how God is not going to come down here to this little planet and live here, but he will continue to rule the universe from where he resides NOW, and that his promise to "reside with mankind" has the same meaning as that phrase has ALWAYS had since he spoke to the Israelites in the wilderness. Not that he will LITERALLY be here amongst humans, but his attention will surely be with us. Did he literally come down here when he said this?.........

Yes, you have explained this interpretation and yet it still has no authoritative backing and again seems to render eternal salvation to that of a petting zoo – where we don’t get to see the face of Christ or be with God (as Scripture promises), instead we get the consolation prize of swimming with the dolphins. For a modest price, I can do that now.

To Jacob: "I myself shall go down with you to Egypt..." (Genesis 46:4)

To Israel: "You must not defile the land in which you are dwelling, in the midst of which I am residing; for I Jehovah am residing in the midst of the sons of Israel." (Numbers 35:36)


Was God being LITERAL? We would have to say no. Just like Jesus wasn't being literal at Matthew 28:20. And Revelation (Apocalypse) 21:1-3 isn't being literal either. It has the same meaning as what God said to Israel in ancient times.

Again, you are free to believe the JW take on all this. It can certainly be rationalized or reasoned – I mean, people have been able to rationalize and reason a lot of things the Bible says to fit any number of untruths. The most important thing would be to ask yourself why should I accept what Charles Taze Russel had to say? Who was he? Why would the truth about Christ’s Church not have been realized until 1930? The Watchtower pamphlets sure seem to know a lot of specifics about what this paradise earth will be like, even though Scripture itself says, “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard . . . “ Just keep an open mind. You are a child of God. He loves you and knows you by name.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1040 by RightReason]

Jesus said that the truth about the Kingdom and God's true followers would come out "at the end of the age" (Matthew 13:39,40; New American Bible). That parable indicates that Jesus' true disciples would be overwhelmed by the false Christians until the last days, which we are living in now. According to Bible chronology, the "end of the age" started in 1914, so since then the truth has been being broadcast world-wide.

If you want to learn more about Christ's true church, and how we know when the last days would start, go to www.jw.org or ask any Jehovah's Witness.

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Jesus said that the truth about the Kingdom and God's true followers would come out "at the end of the age" (Matthew 13:39,40; New American Bible). That parable indicates that Jesus' true disciples would be overwhelmed by the false Christians until the last days, which we are living in now. According to Bible chronology, the "end of the age" started in 1914, so since then the truth has been being broadcast world-wide.

If you want to learn more about Christ's true church, and how we know when the last days would start, go to www.jw.org or ask any Jehovah's Witness.

Oh sweetie.

You are in my prayers.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Jesus said that the truth about the Kingdom and God's true followers would come out "at the end of the age" (Matthew 13:39,40; New American Bible). That parable indicates that Jesus' true disciples would be overwhelmed by the false Christians until the last days, which we are living in now. According to Bible chronology, the "end of the age" started in 1914, so since then the truth has been being broadcast world-wide.

If you want to learn more about Christ's true church, and how we know when the last days would start, go to www.jw.org or ask any Jehovah's Witness.

Oh sweetie.

You are in my prayers.

So kind of you. You are in mine as well.

[onewithhim]

We had a beautiful celebration last night of Jesus' sacrifice for us. We are reminded what boundless love he and his Father have for us.

When God created the earth, he had a specific purpose in mind. He created it to be inhabited (Isaiah 45:18), and his purpose was that humans take care of it and all the animals, gradually making the whole planet a paradise. His purpose wasn't abandoned when Adam and Eve rebelled. God still wants humans to live on the earth and take care of it.

The point was again made that if Adam and Eve had obeyed Jehovah's simple rules, they would still be here---not in heaven.

Jesus died, giving up his human life forever, so that all of us can live forever. He wants us to be able to fulfill his Father's plans for this earth. We can live forever on Earth, doing wonderful things.....things to do without end.

Praise the Universal Sovereign and His Son!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1044 by onewithhim]

Indeed, all the more reason to highlight this wonderful hope of a paradise on earth. Why do you think mainstream churches speak so little of the time when the meek inherit the earth, it was after a promise of Christ?






RELATED POSTS


How do Jehovah's Witness artists depict the 1000 year rule?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 723#959723

Will God kill off all the animals at Armageddon?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 790#964790

Go to other posts related to...


THE MILLENNIUM, PARADISE and ...THE BOOK OF REVELATION

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1044 by onewithhim]

Indeed, all the more reason to highlight this wonderful hope of a paradise on earth. Why do you think mainstream churches speak so little of the time when the meek inherit the earth, it was after a promise of Christ?






RELATED POSTS


How do Jehovah's Witness artists depict the 1000 year rule?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 723#959723

Will God kill off all the animals at Armageddon?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 790#964790

Go to other posts related to...


THE MILLENNIUM, PARADISE and ...THE BOOK OF REVELATION

Even though living on the earth in paradise conditions was the hope of all of God's worshipers before Jesus came, and continues to be the hope of millions today, the churches stopped mentioning it to their adherents when they got deeply involved in worldly politics, which was especially evident in the 4th century and onward.

Political paramours did not want to hear of another government that would make the earth a beautiful place to live. All mention of God's Kingdom and Paradise Earth was anathema to worldly leaders, which they thought undermined their own positions. To keep friendships going with the world, the world's churches had to blot out all mention of God's Kingdom and all of its promises of a beautiful new world.

How they get their people to ignore most of the Bible is a feat ascribable to super powers affecting things from the dark side. (Ephesians 6:12)


:bones:

[JehovahsWitness]

Let me ask you, why you wouldn't want to be where God is?

There is no spot in existence where someone can be away from God if one has a personal relationship with him. On the other hand, someone alienated from God can live in heaven itself (as was the case of Satan the Devil) and not be "with" Him at all. God is, I believe with me, right next to me today, dont you believe he is with you ? Do you have to go to heaven to be with God? We dont believe so!

Humans don't get to decide where they will spend eternity, so even if some want to go to heaven, it's not up to them, it's up to God. Whether one has a heavenly or an earthly calling, we can all be assured that everyone will be "where God is" because God is whereever those that love him are.

For more on this point please see post here
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 51#p812451

REVELATION 21:3

With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them - NWT

JW




FURTHER READING

Who goes to heaven?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... to-heaven/

What is God's Kingdom?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... s-kingdom/





RELATED POSTS

Do some humans go to heaven after they die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 552#901552

WHY does God call some to heavenly life from the earth?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 997#846997

Do ALL good people go to heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 615#878615

Did Elijah go to heaven in the chariot?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 484#946484

144, 000

Is it true only 144,000 individuals will go to heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 594#846594

Do Jehovah's Witnesses teach only 144,000 people will be saved?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 597#846597

If the book of Revelation is highly symbolic, what basis is there for taking the 144,000 as a literal number?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 066#825066

Why would God delegate rulership to others?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 619#878619

FAQ
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 077#816077

[Tcg]

Even though living on the earth in paradise conditions was the hope of all of God's worshipers before Jesus came, and continues to be the hope of millions today, the churches stopped mentioning it to their adherents when they got deeply involved in worldly politics, which was especially evident in the 4th century and onward.

This is a very odd claim. I've attended dozens of churches in my over 6 decades of life all of them taught the mythological tale of a paradise to come.



Tcg