Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 365 by rikuoamero]

There is, of course, no way to know which genes were involved in causing Adam to eventually die.

And yes, I figured it out myself, based on what the Bible says.

If someone else says to me "An ancestor of yours had different DNA to you, he had...flippers (to suggest something off the top of my head)", I'd expect for him to point to the genes in question. Show me the DNA sequence of this ancestor, compare it to my own and point to which genes are responsible for him having flippers, and show how I don't have those genes myself.
If he cannot substantiate said claim, I reject it. You have nothing more than a logical inference.
I think up logical inferences all the time, so do lots of other people. What should be done afterwards, which is the step you seem to have missed, is look for evidence to substantiate it.

OK, then you reject the idea that Adam's genes were somehow changed, though of course it cannot be proven one way or the other. We don't have samples of his genes before and after the Fall, and it is impossible to scientifically determine just which genes were involved.

Thank you for saying that my inference is "logical."



.

Logical inferences aren't all that great by themselves.
Premise 1: All men are immortal
Premise 2: Rikuoamero is a man
Conclusion: Therefore, Rikuoamero is immortal

That is logically valid, in that nothing in there contradicts itself. Should I trumpet my newly-realised immortality though to everyone I meet?
What if the Genesis story said that Adam originally had two heads (no, not counting the one covered by the fig leaves! )? According to your logic, the fact that we ourselves don't have two heads now must mean that Adam had the genes for two heads, and those genes were changed.

You wouldn't need to trumpet your newly realized immortality because every man would be immortal as well. No biggie.

I would have to agree with your assessment of the problem of Adam having had two heads.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 371 by onewithhim]

If you agree with my point about Adam and his two heads, why do you say that here in the real world, our DNA was changed from immortal to mortal? In both cases, the only thing you have going for you is a logical inference based on two disconnected pieces of knowledge (what you understand about genetics and what is mentioned in the Genesis story).
It's one thing to talk about something in hypotheticals, even assuming something as 'true' for the sake of argument. However, when you make the leap to the real world...even here on the TDD subforum, I want to see some evidence.

In fact, doesn't it strike you as somewhat odd that on the one hand, you point to genetics in support of an argument you make...but on the other, you reject genetics when it comes to evolution?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 330 by Joe1950]

Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"?

I don't think very many people would say that.

I have to agree that this is the case with a lot of people. I also think that people would get board with it after a few thousand years, and perhaps even sooner.

At present there are scientists working on prolonging human life indefinitely. This is a serious pursuit and well invested in.

You think that people would really get bored after a few thousand years or sooner?

It would depend on what knowledge is available and what can be done.

What would people do to avoid ennui?

Admittedly I was being rather conservative with the number of years. When people talk about this 'kingdom on earth' they have more of a romantic kind of perception of what that might be like.

How could anyone be bored with living? It's either live or don't live.

That would depend largely on how the living is done and what options are available.

There is no end to what we can learn, so how could a person get bored?

In this universe there would be an end to what can be learned because the universe is going to end. Before that, the earth is going to end, because the sun is going to end.

So then, the options would be to find ways of avoiding ending with the earth as well, which obviously equate to figuring out how to move off the planet and into the galaxy.

Look at the technology we have. Isn't it exciting to think that technology will get even more interesting?

Well yes it is - but how long will the excitement last when we fully understand our predicament in relation to the universe and its inevitable demise? To be effectively trapped within it like a genie in a bottle. Even that the time for this to happen will be billions of years, it is still going to happen.

So in that we would be looking for ways to avoid being the causality of the demise of the universe. We would be looking for ways to survive the inevitable. It would become less something to be excited about and more a question of how to survive it.

You bring out the fact that scientists are working on prolonging human life. Why do you make that point if you think that people will be bored with indefinitely extended life?

I understand the excitement of the possibility. I have been following Jason Silva for some years now, and he is a proponent of this idea and I used to think it very exciting until I actually thought about it from a less emotional, more logical position.
I am just acknowledging that this is where science is taking the human race, and naturally enough that it is. One can take GOD out of the equation and focus on that, but in doing so one has to come from the position that GOD does not exist in any external alternate reality and also that there are no options (like alternate realities) and I am not convinced that this is the case and thus to choose what appears to be the only option may in fact be robbing oneself of other experiences in choosing this one to be the only option.

Death may indeed be the doorway to those other options, and to prolong life in this universe to the point where death is no longer any option, closes that door. All we are left with then, is this universe and we may be denying ourselves far better options, in doing that.

It seems, really, that people don't want to stop living on this earth, and are looking to prolong life so that we don't necessarily die. You say that this pursuit is "well invested in." Then longer life can't be thought of as boring, can it?

Okay - so I was ultra conservative in my saying that after a few thousand years, things might get a tad boring.
But you are speaking about an eternity. Even given the shelf life of this universe is an extremely long time, it is still not an eternity.

But just taking the expected shelf life, that is surely more than enough time to get very bored with the same old same old. There is no avoiding that conclusion because there are only a limited amount of things with which we can DO with the materials in the universe, and specifically this involves technology and machinery.

We can transform the material into a machine. Perhaps we can then make the machine allow for us to have simulated experiences of things which this universe cannot provide. Perhaps we can even get it to give us experiences of the past in which to occupy our living time within it? Perhaps as we move in a space ship away from the earth and to another sector of the galaxy, we might use these things to keep us occupied, but all of this will be essential to keep ennui from the door and keep us entertained through those long trips..etc...do you get where this is going?

A genie in a bottle limited to whatever ideas the genie has which can alleviate the boredom of living eternally within the physical universe.

Doesn't sound to me like the greatest of options, taking all things into consideration...through removing the overly romantic idealism from that equation by getting real about it.

I don't agree that the sun and the earth and the universe are going to end. I am of the opinion that if God created these things, He can surely make them last forever.

It isn't obvious that we would look for ways to move off the earth if, as you say, the universe is going to end anyway.

Why does death seem to you to be a "door" to other possibilities, if this universe will end someday? Why not set "death" aside and accept that life is the better situation?

I see what you're saying, but I don't agree that after awhile it will just be the same old same old. I think that we will continue to learn and be amazed forever. Why would God let His creations cease to exist? How do you know that there are merely a limited amount of things we can do with material things? Have you grasped the facts about everything on the earth? (Or does science learn new things every day?) Are you certain that discoveries will end?

[Benoni]

The word "trumpet" appears approximately one hundred times in the Bible. In the Old Testament the word is found about eighty-five times while in the New Testament it occurs only about fifteen times. The first use of the term is recorded in Exodus, the last in the book of Revelation. To get the spiritual meaning of trumpets we need to establish something of their typological significance. The meaning of the trumpet is made crystal clear in a number of scriptures. Isaiah said, "Cry aloud, spare not, lift up T-H-Y V-O-I-C-E LIKE A TRUMPET, and show My people their transgressions, and the house of Jacob their sins" (Isa. 58:1). Here the voice bearing God's message to His people is likened unto the sounding of a trumpet.
One day as the beloved apostle John trod the burning sands of the desolation of Patmos, he was suddenly caught away in the spirit and immediately, "I heard behind me a great V-O-I-C-E, AS OF A TRUMPET, saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last" (Rev. 1:10-11). Here, Christ's voice, as John heard it, is compared to a trumpet. "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first V-O-I-C-E which I heard was as it were a TRUMPET talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER, and I will show you things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1). Notice this trumpet-voice told him to come up higher, so he could see the things God wanted to show him. God's trumpet-message is always to come up higher. It is sent because that is the great need of the saints and of all mankind, to come up into the higher realms of the spirit, for we cannot see the glorious spiritual truths nor behold the wondrous heavenly things from the lowlands of our carnal mind and nature. Normally we "hear" a voice, but John said of the trumpet-voice that penetrated his spiritual consciousness, "And I turned to SEE THE VOICE that spake with me. And being turned, I SAW seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the seven candlesticks ONE like unto the Son of man..." (Rev. 1:12-13). The One who spoke with a "voice" as of a "trumpet" was IN the trumpet voice, and it was IN THE MESSAGE OF THE VOICE that this glorious One was revealed. I do not hesitate to tell you that this was the revelation of Jesus Christ as He appeared to John IN THE TRUMP OF GOD!
God is gone up with a shout, the Lord with the SOUND OF A TRUMPET" (Ps. 47:5). When a rising time is due for God's people, it may be said that God is "gone UP," as taken from the lesson that He moved in a pillar of cloud and fire to lead His ancient people, Israel. "With the sound of a trumpet" signifies that His voice is being heard. God's VOICE and His TRUMPET are ore and the same. It is the sounding forth of His Word. Many messengers (His many-membered body) add volume to the sound of that trumpet. Rev. 1:15 says, "...His voice as the sound of MANY WATERS." John also tells us in Rev. 17:15 that waters means multitudes of peoples. So God's trumpet voice is sounding through many people, "many waters." "And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a multitude, and as the VOICE OF MANY WATERS, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia, for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth" (Rev. 19:5-6). John heard coming from the throne (divine authority) a message which he said was a voice of a "multitude," of "many waters," and of "mighty thunderings," saying, "Alleluia, for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." It was one trumpet message with many voices adding volume to it. It was ONE MESSAGE, but being trumpeted by many voices, so that it became as the voice of a "great thunder." This shows the beautiful unity in Christ and His many-membered body.
How clear that the Holy Spirit here equates the VOICE of God's prophet, bearing the Lord's MESSAGE to the house of Israel, with the SOUNDING OF THE TRUMPET of the watchman. The trumpet bespeaks a clear word of God from the Spirit appointed and Spirit anointed messengers, His ministers. Trumpets are words, clear words, living words. The trumpet of God is His voice, His voice from heaven, His voice in the saints; even the voice of the Holy Spirit through the consecrated priests of the Most High. The voice of the Lord is the trumpet-sound and the trumpet-voice, the divine message of His truth and life. The trumpet is the revelation of the Lord speaking through His true ministries in an oracle of the Spirit. The sound of the trumpet is simply the PROCLAMATION OF A MESSAGE!
With a simple knowledge like this we should have no trouble at all in understanding that our blessed Lord Jesus Christ, the Logos of God, is Himself the trumpet, the message, the revelation! In type, Jesus is the trumpet of God, delivering a clear sound, a living word, and introducing us to the reality of the perfection and incorruptible life of which He is the beginning. Praise God, it is the LORD HIMSELF who comes in the trumpet (message), and at the sound of His voice we are CAUGHT UP with Him to share the glory of His sphere of life. The Lord Himself descends out from the highest realms of our heavens (spirit) into the lower realm of our earth. We are the creatures God is creating to express His nature, power and glory unto creation. His purpose for coming out of the realm of spirit into your earth is to catch your whole being up into the realm of spirit, to swallow up all death into HIS LIFE. And He accomplishes this by coming to us IN A TRUMPET MESSAGE. He comes in a shout, in a voice of command, and in the trump of God because though we are hungry for God and desire more of Him, because of our flesh and the control of the carnal mind we are not easily alerted or moved.
God is wanting to say and do a NEW THING. It is time to go forward. It is the hour to arise to the battle and possess our land, our full inheritance in God. It is time to leave the first principles of the doctrine of Christ and GO ON TO PERFECTION. It is time to put on the mind of Christ and be transformed by the renewing of our mind. It is time to live and not die. So the Lord descends from heaven in a battle alarm, in the electrifying sound of a trumpet-message, to stimulate, to arouse, to alert and challenge you to get ready for the battle of the ages and the victory of victories that follows!
Today God is trumpeting a message into our hearing. He is projecting into our thinking a realm beyond the feasts of Passover and Pentecost, yea, beyond anything we have heretofore seen, heard, or experienced. He is projecting the fullness of salvation, the high calling of God in Christ Jesus, the King-Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek, maturity in the nature and power of sonship and the dynamic realities of the Most Holy Place into us. No matter what our spiritual understanding has been, we are finally being made aware that we are now living in the most momentous hour imaginable. There is an awakening among the elect of the Lord that transcends human knowledge. He is putting into the hearts of His chosen people the desire to ready themselves for the sonship prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 371 by onewithhim]

If you agree with my point about Adam and his two heads, why do you say that here in the real world, our DNA was changed from immortal to mortal? In both cases, the only thing you have going for you is a logical inference based on two disconnected pieces of knowledge (what you understand about genetics and what is mentioned in the Genesis story).
It's one thing to talk about something in hypotheticals, even assuming something as 'true' for the sake of argument. However, when you make the leap to the real world...even here on the TDD subforum, I want to see some evidence.

In fact, doesn't it strike you as somewhat odd that on the one hand, you point to genetics in support of an argument you make...but on the other, you reject genetics when it comes to evolution?

No, I do not reject genetics when it comes to evolution. I respect true scientific discoveries. The theory of evolution is BAD SCIENCE. Even Darwin occasionally had his doubts about mindless evolution, and there are today many scientists who reject the theory of evolution. I'll provide some links in a later post. Quite interesting!


.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 371 by onewithhim]

If you agree with my point about Adam and his two heads, why do you say that here in the real world, our DNA was changed from immortal to mortal? In both cases, the only thing you have going for you is a logical inference based on two disconnected pieces of knowledge (what you understand about genetics and what is mentioned in the Genesis story).
It's one thing to talk about something in hypotheticals, even assuming something as 'true' for the sake of argument. However, when you make the leap to the real world...even here on the TDD subforum, I want to see some evidence.

In fact, doesn't it strike you as somewhat odd that on the one hand, you point to genetics in support of an argument you make...but on the other, you reject genetics when it comes to evolution?

No, I do not reject genetics when it comes to evolution. I respect true scientific discoveries. The theory of evolution is BAD SCIENCE. Even Darwin occasionally had his doubts about mindless evolution, and there are today many scientists who reject the theory of evolution. I'll provide some links in a later post. Quite interesting!


.

Just going to say that genetic research over the last few years says that all of humanity shares a common female ancestor (mitochondrial Eve) and a common male ancestor (Y Chromosomal Adam), and that those two individuals lived somewhere in the region of 200,000 to 300,000 years ago (and not at the same time as each other).
This obviously contradicts the Adam and Eve story from the Bible, which says (or suggests) that they were the ancestors of all humans.
Genetic research is also quite firm, last I checked, that there was NO bottleneck as would have happened had there really been a global flood, with animal/human populations reduced to double digits in terms of numbers for each species. In humans, it was Noah, his three sons and their wives, if I recall correctly, yet we have mapped out the entirety of the human genome and not found a trace of a bottleneck there.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 371 by onewithhim]

If you agree with my point about Adam and his two heads, why do you say that here in the real world, our DNA was changed from immortal to mortal? In both cases, the only thing you have going for you is a logical inference based on two disconnected pieces of knowledge (what you understand about genetics and what is mentioned in the Genesis story).
It's one thing to talk about something in hypotheticals, even assuming something as 'true' for the sake of argument. However, when you make the leap to the real world...even here on the TDD subforum, I want to see some evidence.

In fact, doesn't it strike you as somewhat odd that on the one hand, you point to genetics in support of an argument you make...but on the other, you reject genetics when it comes to evolution?

No, I do not reject genetics when it comes to evolution. I respect true scientific discoveries. The theory of evolution is BAD SCIENCE. Even Darwin occasionally had his doubts about mindless evolution, and there are today many scientists who reject the theory of evolution. I'll provide some links in a later post. Quite interesting!


.

Just going to say that genetic research over the last few years says that all of humanity shares a common female ancestor (mitochondrial Eve) and a common male ancestor (Y Chromosomal Adam), and that those two individuals lived somewhere in the region of 200,000 to 300,000 years ago (and not at the same time as each other).
This obviously contradicts the Adam and Eve story from the Bible, which says (or suggests) that they were the ancestors of all humans.
Genetic research is also quite firm, last I checked, that there was NO bottleneck as would have happened had there really been a global flood, with animal/human populations reduced to double digits in terms of numbers for each species. In humans, it was Noah, his three sons and their wives, if I recall correctly, yet we have mapped out the entirety of the human genome and not found a trace of a bottleneck there.

How does that scientific research contradict the A&E story? Obviously the two individuals that science has identified, from which all other humans came, had to exist at the same time. Otherwise there would be no other human beings.

Concerning the global flood....I've got that on a back burner. I haven't decided what aspects of the story are absolutely set in stone. Jesus believed in a great flood in the days of Noah, so something happened that was out of the normal.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 377 by onewithhim]

Obviously the two individuals that science has identified, from which all other humans came, had to exist at the same time. Otherwise there would be no other human beings.

Not so. This shows your misunderstanding of the science.
Think of it like this - all cars today have wheels and an engine. They all share the same common features or design. Does this mean that the designer/inventor of the engine, and the designer/inventor of the wheels, had to have lived at the same time and in the same place?

Mitochondrial Eve is the most recent common female ancestor of all humans alive today. Literally all. If you take the genome (that is, the genetic record) of all humans alive today, we would all have this specific woman in our ancestry. Other women alive at the same time as her would have had children and descendants of their own, but those lineages eventually died out.

Y-Chromosomal Adam is a completely different individual, a male, who is the most recent common male ancestor of all humans alive today. There is no requirement that this specific male had intercourse with and produced children with the specific female identified as Mitochondrial Eve. If you look at the genetic record of all humans alive today, you will find that every human shares a common male ancestor and the most recent common male ancestor is called Y Chromosomal Adam.
Adam's descendants would eventually have mated with either M. Eve herself or her own descendants, and the two lines would have fused, eventually splitting off to give us the human race that exists today.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 377 by onewithhim]

Obviously the two individuals that science has identified, from which all other humans came, had to exist at the same time. Otherwise there would be no other human beings.

Not so. This shows your misunderstanding of the science.
Think of it like this - all cars today have wheels and an engine. They all share the same common features or design. Does this mean that the designer/inventor of the engine, and the designer/inventor of the wheels, had to have lived at the same time and in the same place?

Mitochondrial Eve is the most recent common female ancestor of all humans alive today. Literally all. If you take the genome (that is, the genetic record) of all humans alive today, we would all have this specific woman in our ancestry. Other women alive at the same time as her would have had children and descendants of their own, but those lineages eventually died out.

Y-Chromosomal Adam is a completely different individual, a male, who is the most recent common male ancestor of all humans alive today. There is no requirement that this specific male had intercourse with and produced children with the specific female identified as Mitochondrial Eve. If you look at the genetic record of all humans alive today, you will find that every human shares a common male ancestor and the most recent common male ancestor is called Y Chromosomal Adam.
Adam's descendants would eventually have mated with either M. Eve herself or her own descendants, and the two lines would have fused, eventually splitting off to give us the human race that exists today.

In my opinion, you are adding something to the scientific discovery that all humans come from "Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam." I don't see that anyone has said that there were other humans existing at the same time.

We haven't been discussing the inventor's or the creator's existence, we have been talking about the invention or, creation, itself. To be propagated onward, the two creations---man and woman---would have to exist at the same time. The scientific info you mention SUPPORTS the story of Adam and Eve.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 377 by onewithhim]

Obviously the two individuals that science has identified, from which all other humans came, had to exist at the same time. Otherwise there would be no other human beings.

Not so. This shows your misunderstanding of the science.
Think of it like this - all cars today have wheels and an engine. They all share the same common features or design. Does this mean that the designer/inventor of the engine, and the designer/inventor of the wheels, had to have lived at the same time and in the same place?

Mitochondrial Eve is the most recent common female ancestor of all humans alive today. Literally all. If you take the genome (that is, the genetic record) of all humans alive today, we would all have this specific woman in our ancestry. Other women alive at the same time as her would have had children and descendants of their own, but those lineages eventually died out.

Y-Chromosomal Adam is a completely different individual, a male, who is the most recent common male ancestor of all humans alive today. There is no requirement that this specific male had intercourse with and produced children with the specific female identified as Mitochondrial Eve. If you look at the genetic record of all humans alive today, you will find that every human shares a common male ancestor and the most recent common male ancestor is called Y Chromosomal Adam.
Adam's descendants would eventually have mated with either M. Eve herself or her own descendants, and the two lines would have fused, eventually splitting off to give us the human race that exists today.

In my opinion, you are adding something to the scientific discovery that all humans come from "Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam." I don't see that anyone has said that there were other humans existing at the same time.

We haven't been discussing the inventor's or the creator's existence, we have been talking about the invention or, creation, itself. To be propagated onward, the two creations---man and woman---would have to exist at the same time. The scientific info you mention SUPPORTS the story of Adam and Eve.

The scientific info I mention supports the Biblical story only in that the two individuals are basically nicknamed Adam and Eve, and that the individuals are the most recent common ancestors of all humans alive today.
Nowhere in the scientific info that I mention does it state that M. Eve or Y.C. Adam were mates with each other (or even lived during each other's life-time).
Think of it like everyone on this forum sharing a common female ancestor, a great great great great (four times) grandmother, and also sharing a common male ancestor, who happens to be our great great great great great great great (seven times) grandfather.
Did those two individuals have children together? Did they even live at the same time?

Nope.