JESUS IS NOT GOD

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onewithhim
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JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post by onewithhim »

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

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tigger2
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post by tigger2 »

[Replying to post 1 by onewithhim]

Clearly, Jesus didn't believe himself to be God. It is noteworthy that trinitarians have used the writings of John to find their best 'proofs' for Jesus' 'Godhood,' but the scriptures you have quoted are also from John and prove otherwise.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to post 1 by onewithhim]

This is not the recipe for a mere man:
  • Matthew 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.â€�
More of a God/Man hybrid. Christians balk at that definition, but it is clearly what is being described. So, yes, Jesus isn't fully God, but he isn't fully human either.


Tcg
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Post by Overcomer »

All those quotations prove is that God the Son is NOT God the Father. But they don't prove Jesus isn't God. The Trinity is defined as one God who exists in three persons. Again, those verses do not disprove the Trinity, but, in fact, prove it.

When Jesus said that he was I AM (John 8:58; Ex. 3:6), he was saying that he's God, using the same name as God the Father and indicating his eternalness. And the Pharisees knew he was calling himself God because they accused him of blasphemy which, in that culture, was defined as claiming to be God. See here:

https://www.gotquestions.org/I-AM.html

When he told the paralytic that his sins were forgiven, he was saying that he was God because, as the Pharisees in the audience noted, only God can forgive sins (Matt. 9:1-8).

See here:

https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/bib ... -8825.html

Verses that indicate how Jesus saw himself can be found here:

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/v ... 41064.html

And this on Jesus' self-understanding:

https://probe.org/the-self-understanding-of-jesus/

For those who like to listen, here's Ben Witherington talking about Christ's self-understanding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6wfjctiubc

One thousand verses that prove Jesus was God the Son, the third person of the Trinity:

https://irr.org/biblical-basis-of-doctrine-of-trinity

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 3 by Tcg]

Jesus had to be fully human to negate Adam's unfaithfulness. The Messiah had to be a man just like Adam was. That was what was required to provide an act of redemption.

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous." (Romans 5:19)

"For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." (I Corinthians 15:22)

"So it is written: 'The first Adam became a living person.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinth.15:45)


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Post by onewithhim »

Overcomer wrote: All those quotations prove is that God the Son is NOT God the Father. But they don't prove Jesus isn't God. The Trinity is defined as one God who exists in three persons. Again, those verses do not disprove the Trinity, but, in fact, prove it.

When Jesus said that he was I AM (John 8:58; Ex. 3:6), he was saying that he's God, using the same name as God the Father and indicating his eternalness. And the Pharisees knew he was calling himself God because they accused him of blasphemy which, in that culture, was defined as claiming to be God. See here:



https://www.gotquestions.org/I-AM.html

When he told the paralytic that his sins were forgiven, he was saying that he was God because, as the Pharisees in the audience noted, only God can forgive sins (Matt. 9:1-8).

See here:

https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/bib ... -8825.html

Verses that indicate how Jesus saw himself can be found here:

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/v ... 41064.html

And this on Jesus' self-understanding:

https://probe.org/the-self-understanding-of-jesus/

For those who like to listen, here's Ben Witherington talking about Christ's self-understanding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6wfjctiubc

One thousand verses that prove Jesus was God the Son, the third person of the Trinity:

https://irr.org/biblical-basis-of-doctrine-of-trinity
How can someone who is God say that the Father is HIS God? God can have no one higher than he is, yet Jesus says that he does have Someone higher than he is.

Why would God say that he can't do anything of his own initiative, but only what the Father tells him to do and say? How can God learn anything from anyone? Yet Jesus says that whatever he does, he has learned it from the Father.

John 8:58 is a botched up translation in most Bibles. It is bad English and neither does it exemplify good Greek. Translators are duty-bound to translate verses into GOOD English from the Greek. Many versions translate in ways that reflect their own biases.

Many other versions of the Bible render John 8:58 this way: "I existed before Abraham was even born." This is a proper translation and is good English. It also harmonizes with everything else Jesus said about himself.

Someone once noticed that word-for-word rendering of the verse seemed to match the rendering of Exodus 3:14, so they left the word-for-word rendering of "ego eimi" to (deviously) support their belief that Jesus is God.

I have looked at a couple of other versions' rendering of Exodus 3:14, and they do not translate it to "I Am."

Leeser: "I Will Be That I Will Be."

Rotherham: "I Will Become Whatsoever I Please."

Everett Fox: "I Will Be There Howsoever I Will Be There."


It looks like "I Am" is not necessarily what God said to Moses. Therefore, the person who connected what Jesus said to Ex.3:14 wasn't really skillful in interpreting Hebrew.

People say that the New World Translation is unique in that it renders the passage in a way that suits our beliefs, but is it the only version that renders it differently than the KJV and its off-shoots? No, many scholars and modern-day translators will attest to the fact that Jesus was not uttering "I Am" in some mysterious fashion in this verse. There are almost 30 versions that I have seen listed that have translated verse 58 the way the NWT does. Only 5 are:

1) The Living New Testament: "The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born."

2) The Twentieth Century New Testament: "before Abraham existed I was."

3) Noyes, G.R. (1878): "Jesus said to them, truly, truly do I say to you, from before Abraham was, I have been."

4) Parker, P.G. Clarified N.T.: "Jesus answered, before Abraham existed, I existed."

5) The Complete Bible, An American Translation, Goodspeed: "I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born."


As I said, those are just 5 out of almost 30 that I know about. So really, did Jesus say he was Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh?


You say that only God can forgive sins? This is true, but there is nothing to impede God from turning over that job to His Son, is there, if He wishes? Jesus said that "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." (Matt.28:18) I would imagine that includes forgiving sins. Jesus was GIVEN that authority by God. He apparently didn't always have it.


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Post by brianbbs67 »

Here's the interlinear for that :

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8-58.htm

You could see just looking at the words what the reaction would be. Does it mean he claimed to be God? Maybe, but since every where else he says otherwise, I believe it to be wordplay to irritate the audience.

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Post by 2timothy316 »

brianbbs67 wrote: Here's the interlinear for that :

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8-58.htm

You could see just looking at the words what the reaction would be. Does it mean he claimed to be God? Maybe, but since every where else he says otherwise, I believe it to be wordplay to irritate the audience.
Jesus was notorious for exposing the hardened and dogmatic hearts of the crowds with his words. Seemingly giving people an excuse why they should abandon him. The dogmatic and stubborn leave so they can keep doing what they have always been doing the meek stay to learn what Jesus meant and what they should be doing.

"So Jesus said to the Twelve: “You do not want to go also, do you?� Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life." - John 6:67, 68

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Post by PinSeeker »

Overcomer wrote: All those quotations prove is that God the Son is NOT God the Father. But they don't prove Jesus isn't God. The Trinity is defined as one God who exists in three persons. Again, those verses do not disprove the Trinity, but, in fact, prove it.

When Jesus said that he was I AM (John 8:58; Ex. 3:6), he was saying that he's God, using the same name as God the Father and indicating his eternalness. And the Pharisees knew he was calling himself God because they accused him of blasphemy which, in that culture, was defined as claiming to be God. See here:

https://www.gotquestions.org/I-AM.html

When he told the paralytic that his sins were forgiven, he was saying that he was God because, as the Pharisees in the audience noted, only God can forgive sins (Matt. 9:1-8).

See here:

https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/bib ... -8825.html

Verses that indicate how Jesus saw himself can be found here:

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/v ... 41064.html

And this on Jesus' self-understanding:

https://probe.org/the-self-understanding-of-jesus/

For those who like to listen, here's Ben Witherington talking about Christ's self-understanding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6wfjctiubc

One thousand verses that prove Jesus was God the Son, the third person of the Trinity:

https://irr.org/biblical-basis-of-doctrine-of-trinity
Well, the second Person of the Trinity (rather than the third), but yeah.

As I have said, this is the greatest of Jesus's open proclamations that He is God. As you point out, He did indeed say, "Before Abraham was born, I Am." "I Am" is a direct restatement of Exodus 3:14, where God tells Moses His Name, really translated to English in all three of the following ways at once:
  • 1. "I was that I am."
    2. "I am that I am."
    3. "I will be that I am."
The clear implication is that He is from everlasting to everlasting, and it's not only a statement about Himself, but a promise. And Jesus attributes the exact same thing to Himself. Moreover, this is right after Jesus cast Himself as the pillar of cloud and fire which led the Israelites through the desert during the Exodus (chapter 13-17). God led His people and provided for them then and now, even giving them (and us) Himself as their (and our) sustenance and even overabundance, and He will do so forever. As He said, He is "the Light of the world; he who follows (Him) will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life" (John 8:12).

As John says in Revelation 5:
  • "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.â€�
Of course, He always had it, even before the foundation of the world; He merely set it aside for a time (Philippians 2) so that He could complete the work of redemption on our behalf. At any rate, though, our response is -- or should be, and eventually will be, even by those who do not inherit His kingdom but are sent away:
  • "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.â€�
As always, grace and peace to all.

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Post by onewithhim »

brianbbs67 wrote: Here's the interlinear for that :

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8-58.htm

You could see just looking at the words what the reaction would be. Does it mean he claimed to be God? Maybe, but since every where else he says otherwise, I believe it to be wordplay to irritate the audience.
My Hendrickson Interlinear says the same thing, but I believe that, to be p.c. concerning those who believe Jesus is God, the translators rendered "ego eimi" as if these words were standing alone. This should not be done when translating an entire sentence, be cause grammar and sentence structure and translation rules must be taken into consideration. The translators must produce a sentence that is good and proper English, with tenses not contradicting each other.

BeDuhn says: The verse "can be rendered straightforwardly into English by doing what translators always do with Greek, namely, rearrange the word order into normal English order, and adjust things like verbal tense complimentarity into PROPER ENGLISH EXPRESSION. These steps of translation are necessary because Greek and English are not the same language and do not obey the same rules of grammar.Leaving the translation at the stage of a lexical ('interlinear') rendering, which is one way to describe what most translations do here, simply won't work. This is because Greek has more flexibility with word order than English does, and it can mix verbal tenses in a way English cannot." (Truth in Translation, pp.104,105)

This whole verb tense thing is the key to understanding what has happened concerning this verse in John. When verb tenses are used in a way outside of usual translational expectations, it is called an "idiom." Because Greek idioms are different from English idioms, translators do not translate these expressions word-for-word but rather convey the meaning of the Greek idiom IN PROPER, COMPREHENSIBLE ENGLISH.

That is what translators are supposed to do. As BeDuhn says, "It is ungrammatical English for something referred to with a present 'am' to occur earlier in time than something described with a past 'came to be.' ...In John 8:58, since Jesus' existence is not completed past action, but ongoing, we must use some sort of imperfect verbal form to convey that: "I have been (since) before Abraham came to be." That is as close as we can get to what the Greek says in our own language if we pay attention to ALL parts of the sentence."

So I think we can see that most translations do not consider all the parts of the sentence, in accord with proper translation rules regarding the translating of Greek to English. Why is this? Pure bias.

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