JW organization.

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.

[Elijah John]

QUESTION How do we know the bible (canon) is the word of God?

The contents of the bible present convincing evidence of its Divine origin.

#1 It claims to be the word of God.

1. So does the Quran
2. Literally anyone can make this claim. I can write a book right now and claim it came from God

The bible contains scientific detail that would not have been readily available to the writers and implies authorship from a higher source. For example, at a time when it was generally believe that the earth was flat and must have had visible means of support the bible describes the earth as a "globe" (sphere) that is suspended in space ie has not visible means of support.

The ancient Greeks figured this out without God's help.

I always find it amusing how when the Bible agrees with science then "it proves the Bible is the word of God" but when the Bible disagrees with science then either
a) the text is "misinterpreted"
viewtopic.php?p=836617#836617

or b) science is wrong
viewtopic.php?p=850325#850325


Just out of curiosity... how would you respond to a Muslim claiming the Quran predicted the Big Bang theory?

#3 It records history before it has happened. The bible records historical détails and events long before (in some cases hundreds of years) before they happened. This presents its most convincing evidence of Divine authorship since humans do not have the ability to see into the future.

Can you perhaps
1) provide the predictive verses
2) prove the predictions came true after the predictions were made

Muslims make the same claims about the Qur'an as you pointed out. Including scientific claims. They point to this as evidence of Divine origin. "Signs for thinking men" is an oft repeated refrain in the Muslim Holy Book.

Also, regarding prophesy, how can Christian literalists and apologists be so certain that the fulfillment of these prophesies were not written retrospectively with the narrative details of Jesus life and sayings written in such a way as to conform to those prophesies?

Since the Gospels were written at least a generation after the fact, there certainly would have been room for some well-intended tampering! All to support the claim that Jesus was the "predicted" Messiah.

[onewithhim]

#3 It records history before it has happened. The bible records historical détails and events long before (in some cases hundreds of years) before they happened. This presents its most convincing evidence of Divine authorship since humans do not have the ability to see into the future.

Can you perhaps
1) provide the predictive verses
2) prove the predictions came true after the predictions were made

The predictive verses:

"This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you, the One saying of Jerusalem, 'She will be inhabited,' and of the cities of Judah, 'They will be rebuilt, and her desolated places I shall raise up'; the One saying to the watery deep, 'Be evaporated; and all your rivers I shall dry up...the One saying of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out; even in saying of Jerusalem, "She will be rebuilt," and of the temple, "You will have your foundation laid."'

"This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that I may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be shut....'The copper doors I shall break in pieces, and the iron bars I shall cut down....I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.'"

(Isaiah 44:24,26b,27,28; Isaiah 45:1,2,5)

That prophecy was made around 200 years before the fall of Babylon. If you check with history, you will see that it came true just as the Bible says. Babylon was the world power of that day, up until the night of October 5, 539 B.C. (Gregorian calendar.) Cyrus the Great's army engineers diverted the Euphrates River and lowered the level of the moat around the city, allowing the Persians to cross over and into the city. The huge gates had been left open. They went right in and took over everything. How can anyone argue with that prophecy? It was true right down to the commander's name. 200 hundred years before Cyrus was even born.

That's just one prophecy. There are others, but the fact that this prophecy has proved true negates any reason for further inquiry to prove that the Bible is prophetically accurate.

[onewithhim]

QUESTION How do we know the bible (canon) is the word of God?

The contents of the bible present convincing evidence of its Divine origin.

#1 It claims to be the word of God.

1. So does the Quran
2. Literally anyone can make this claim. I can write a book right now and claim it came from God

The bible contains scientific detail that would not have been readily available to the writers and implies authorship from a higher source. For example, at a time when it was generally believe that the earth was flat and must have had visible means of support the bible describes the earth as a "globe" (sphere) that is suspended in space ie has not visible means of support.

The ancient Greeks figured this out without God's help.

I always find it amusing how when the Bible agrees with science then "it proves the Bible is the word of God" but when the Bible disagrees with science then either
a) the text is "misinterpreted"
viewtopic.php?p=836617#836617

or b) science is wrong
viewtopic.php?p=850325#850325


Just out of curiosity... how would you respond to a Muslim claiming the Quran predicted the Big Bang theory?

#3 It records history before it has happened. The bible records historical détails and events long before (in some cases hundreds of years) before they happened. This presents its most convincing evidence of Divine authorship since humans do not have the ability to see into the future.

Can you perhaps
1) provide the predictive verses
2) prove the predictions came true after the predictions were made

Muslims make the same claims about the Qur'an as you pointed out. Including scientific claims. They point to this as evidence of Divine origin. "Signs for thinking men" is an oft repeated refrain in the Muslim Holy Book.

Also, regarding prophesy, how can Christian literalists and apologists be so certain that the fulfillment of these prophesies were not written retrospectively with the narrative details of Jesus life and sayings written in such a way as to conform to those prophesies?

Since the Gospels were written at least a generation after the fact, there certainly would have been room for some well-intended tampering! All to support the claim that Jesus was the "predicted" Messiah.

So you accept the total integrity of Mohammed? He was a moral, peaceful man, in your opinion? He actually rode into heaven on a horse? That nonsense right there prevents me from giving ANY credit to him or his book. There are no animals in heaven! Not one single reference of any animal being in heaven, in the Bible. Then...Jesus was every inch a moral person, and he credited to his Father everything. He even made known the Father's name, which Muslims reject. Muslims say that they view the Old Testament as sent from Allah, but they contradict it. They also say that Jesus was a great prophet but they deny that he died for mankind as it says in the Bible, and, further, they also deny that he is THE MAIN PROPHET, as the Bible tells us he is. Their prophet is Mohammed. It is my opinion that "thinking men" will reject the Qu'ran.

I don't see how any of Jesus' followers could have made the things he experienced coincide with what the Scriptures had said about the Messiah. How could they have forced him to be born somewhere other than Nazareth? How could they have fixed it so that he would die a torturous death, "scourged" and "pierced through"?

[Justin108]

#3 It records history before it has happened. The bible records historical détails and events long before (in some cases hundreds of years) before they happened. This presents its most convincing evidence of Divine authorship since humans do not have the ability to see into the future.

Can you perhaps
1) provide the predictive verses
2) prove the predictions came true after the predictions were made

The predictive verses:

"This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you, the One saying of Jerusalem, 'She will be inhabited,' and of the cities of Judah, 'They will be rebuilt, and her desolated places I shall raise up'; the One saying to the watery deep, 'Be evaporated; and all your rivers I shall dry up...the One saying of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out; even in saying of Jerusalem, "She will be rebuilt," and of the temple, "You will have your foundation laid."'

"This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that I may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be shut....'The copper doors I shall break in pieces, and the iron bars I shall cut down....I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.'"

(Isaiah 44:24,26b,27,28; Isaiah 45:1,2,5)

That prophecy was made around 200 years before the fall of Babylon. If you check with history, you will see that it came true just as the Bible says. Babylon was the world power of that day, up until the night of October 5, 539 B.C. (Gregorian calendar.) Cyrus the Great's army engineers diverted the Euphrates River and lowered the level of the moat around the city, allowing the Persians to cross over and into the city. The huge gates had been left open. They went right in and took over everything. How can anyone argue with that prophecy? It was true right down to the commander's name. 200 hundred years before Cyrus was even born.

That's just one prophecy. There are others, but the fact that this prophecy has proved true negates any reason for further inquiry to prove that the Bible is prophetically accurate.

Can you please point out where it says Cyrus will conquer Babylon? I don't see any mention of Babylon in either Isaiah 44 or 45

[Justin108]

QUESTION How do we know the bible (canon) is the word of God?

The contents of the bible present convincing evidence of its Divine origin.

#1 It claims to be the word of God.

1. So does the Quran
2. Literally anyone can make this claim. I can write a book right now and claim it came from God

The bible contains scientific detail that would not have been readily available to the writers and implies authorship from a higher source. For example, at a time when it was generally believe that the earth was flat and must have had visible means of support the bible describes the earth as a "globe" (sphere) that is suspended in space ie has not visible means of support.

The ancient Greeks figured this out without God's help.

I always find it amusing how when the Bible agrees with science then "it proves the Bible is the word of God" but when the Bible disagrees with science then either
a) the text is "misinterpreted"
viewtopic.php?p=836617#836617

or b) science is wrong
viewtopic.php?p=850325#850325


Just out of curiosity... how would you respond to a Muslim claiming the Quran predicted the Big Bang theory?

#3 It records history before it has happened. The bible records historical détails and events long before (in some cases hundreds of years) before they happened. This presents its most convincing evidence of Divine authorship since humans do not have the ability to see into the future.

Can you perhaps
1) provide the predictive verses
2) prove the predictions came true after the predictions were made

Muslims make the same claims about the Qur'an as you pointed out. Including scientific claims. They point to this as evidence of Divine origin. "Signs for thinking men" is an oft repeated refrain in the Muslim Holy Book.

Also, regarding prophesy, how can Christian literalists and apologists be so certain that the fulfillment of these prophesies were not written retrospectively with the narrative details of Jesus life and sayings written in such a way as to conform to those prophesies?

Since the Gospels were written at least a generation after the fact, there certainly would have been room for some well-intended tampering! All to support the claim that Jesus was the "predicted" Messiah.

So you accept the total integrity of Mohammed? He was a moral, peaceful man, in your opinion?

What does that have to do with anything he said? Elijah John and I point out the supposed "scientific miracles" in the Quran and instead of actually addressing these miracles, you instead question his moral character? This is nothing but a Red Herring.

He actually rode into heaven on a horse?

Well that's about as likely as any of the miracles mentioned in the Bible

That nonsense right there prevents me from giving ANY credit to him or his book.

Wait so you have no problem believing Jonah lived in the belly of a giant fish for 3 days or that Balaam spoke to a talking donkey, but you refuse to believe that Muhammad rode into heaven on a horse?

There are no animals in heaven!

1. There is not a single verse in the Bible stating this
2. Even if there was, how do you know the Bible is right and the Quran is wrong? You're basically saying that "the Quran is wrong because it disagrees with my religion". Which is an absurd argument

Not one single reference of any animal being in heaven, in the Bible.

...okay? There's also no mention of kangaroos existing in the Bible at all, so are we to then conclude that kangaroos don't exist on earth? The fact that the Bible does not explicitly state "oh and by the way, there are animals in heaven" does not mean that there are no animals in heaven.

He even made known the Father's name, which Muslims reject.

Again, "Islam is wrong because it disagrees with my religion". A religion is not wrong by default simply for disagreeing with Christianity

Muslims say that they view the Old Testament as sent from Allah, but they contradict it.

1. Please quote where in the Quran it states that the Torah is completely accurate?
2. Please specify which contradictions you are referring to

They also say that Jesus was a great prophet but they deny that he died for mankind as it says in the Bible

"Islam is wrong because it disagrees with my religion"

I don't see how any of Jesus' followers could have made the things he experienced coincide with what the Scriptures had said about the Messiah. How could they have forced him to be born somewhere other than Nazareth? How could they have fixed it so that he would die a torturous death, "scourged" and "pierced through"?

Can you perhaps provide proof that Jesus was in fact the Messiah? Supporting scriptures, fulfilled prophecies, etc.

[onewithhim]

#3 It records history before it has happened. The bible records historical détails and events long before (in some cases hundreds of years) before they happened. This presents its most convincing evidence of Divine authorship since humans do not have the ability to see into the future.

Can you perhaps
1) provide the predictive verses
2) prove the predictions came true after the predictions were made

The predictive verses:

"This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you, the One saying of Jerusalem, 'She will be inhabited,' and of the cities of Judah, 'They will be rebuilt, and her desolated places I shall raise up'; the One saying to the watery deep, 'Be evaporated; and all your rivers I shall dry up...the One saying of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out; even in saying of Jerusalem, "She will be rebuilt," and of the temple, "You will have your foundation laid."'

"This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that I may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be shut....'The copper doors I shall break in pieces, and the iron bars I shall cut down....I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.'"

(Isaiah 44:24,26b,27,28; Isaiah 45:1,2,5)

That prophecy was made around 200 years before the fall of Babylon. If you check with history, you will see that it came true just as the Bible says. Babylon was the world power of that day, up until the night of October 5, 539 B.C. (Gregorian calendar.) Cyrus the Great's army engineers diverted the Euphrates River and lowered the level of the moat around the city, allowing the Persians to cross over and into the city. The huge gates had been left open. They went right in and took over everything. How can anyone argue with that prophecy? It was true right down to the commander's name. 200 hundred years before Cyrus was even born.

That's just one prophecy. There are others, but the fact that this prophecy has proved true negates any reason for further inquiry to prove that the Bible is prophetically accurate.

Can you please point out where it says Cyrus will conquer Babylon? I don't see any mention of Babylon in either Isaiah 44 or 45

It is an historical fact that Cyrus conquered Babylon, so we can deduce that those Scriptures refer to Babylon, especially since the details of the prophecy coincide with historical fact.

[onewithhim]

QUESTION How do we know the bible (canon) is the word of God?

The contents of the bible present convincing evidence of its Divine origin.

#1 It claims to be the word of God.

1. So does the Quran
2. Literally anyone can make this claim. I can write a book right now and claim it came from God

The bible contains scientific detail that would not have been readily available to the writers and implies authorship from a higher source. For example, at a time when it was generally believe that the earth was flat and must have had visible means of support the bible describes the earth as a "globe" (sphere) that is suspended in space ie has not visible means of support.

The ancient Greeks figured this out without God's help.

I always find it amusing how when the Bible agrees with science then "it proves the Bible is the word of God" but when the Bible disagrees with science then either
a) the text is "misinterpreted"
viewtopic.php?p=836617#836617

or b) science is wrong
viewtopic.php?p=850325#850325


Just out of curiosity... how would you respond to a Muslim claiming the Quran predicted the Big Bang theory?

#3 It records history before it has happened. The bible records historical détails and events long before (in some cases hundreds of years) before they happened. This presents its most convincing evidence of Divine authorship since humans do not have the ability to see into the future.

Can you perhaps
1) provide the predictive verses
2) prove the predictions came true after the predictions were made

Muslims make the same claims about the Qur'an as you pointed out. Including scientific claims. They point to this as evidence of Divine origin. "Signs for thinking men" is an oft repeated refrain in the Muslim Holy Book.

Also, regarding prophesy, how can Christian literalists and apologists be so certain that the fulfillment of these prophesies were not written retrospectively with the narrative details of Jesus life and sayings written in such a way as to conform to those prophesies?

Since the Gospels were written at least a generation after the fact, there certainly would have been room for some well-intended tampering! All to support the claim that Jesus was the "predicted" Messiah.

So you accept the total integrity of Mohammed? He was a moral, peaceful man, in your opinion?

What does that have to do with anything he said? Elijah John and I point out the supposed "scientific miracles" in the Quran and instead of actually addressing these miracles, you instead question his moral character? This is nothing but a Red Herring.

He actually rode into heaven on a horse?

Well that's about as likely as any of the miracles mentioned in the Bible

That nonsense right there prevents me from giving ANY credit to him or his book.

Wait so you have no problem believing Jonah lived in the belly of a giant fish for 3 days or that Balaam spoke to a talking donkey, but you refuse to believe that Muhammad rode into heaven on a horse?

There are no animals in heaven!

1. There is not a single verse in the Bible stating this
2. Even if there was, how do you know the Bible is right and the Quran is wrong? You're basically saying that "the Quran is wrong because it disagrees with my religion". Which is an absurd argument

Not one single reference of any animal being in heaven, in the Bible.

...okay? There's also no mention of kangaroos existing in the Bible at all, so are we to then conclude that kangaroos don't exist on earth? The fact that the Bible does not explicitly state "oh and by the way, there are animals in heaven" does not mean that there are no animals in heaven.

He even made known the Father's name, which Muslims reject.

Again, "Islam is wrong because it disagrees with my religion". A religion is not wrong by default simply for disagreeing with Christianity

Muslims say that they view the Old Testament as sent from Allah, but they contradict it.

1. Please quote where in the Quran it states that the Torah is completely accurate?
2. Please specify which contradictions you are referring to

They also say that Jesus was a great prophet but they deny that he died for mankind as it says in the Bible

"Islam is wrong because it disagrees with my religion"

I don't see how any of Jesus' followers could have made the things he experienced coincide with what the Scriptures had said about the Messiah. How could they have forced him to be born somewhere other than Nazareth? How could they have fixed it so that he would die a torturous death, "scourged" and "pierced through"?

Can you perhaps provide proof that Jesus was in fact the Messiah? Supporting scriptures, fulfilled prophecies, etc.[/quote]



ONEWITHHIM ANSWERS:

I believe that Elijah John brought up the Quran because JW said that the Bible claims to be the word of God. EJ said, "So does the Quran." That is what caused me to compare Mohammed's integrity with the Bible writers'. I know that the argument can be made that, for example, Solomon, who wrote Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, was immoral in his final years and disobedient to God. So I might set aside the moral integrity or lack thereof of Mohammed.

Could you provide the parts in the Quran that show scientific accuracy? The Bible has a few examples of scientific accuracy. (Job 26:7, the earth hangs on nothing; Job 36:27,28, water cycle) I would also be interested to see how the Quran predicted the advent of the Bib Bang Theory. I'm sorry, I missed where you and EJ pointed out "scientific miracles" in the Quran.

I do not believe that there are animals in heaven, because the whole point of anyone going to heaven at all is to rule with Christ over people on the earth. Animals don't have the capacity to guide and direct people. Mohammed apparently didn't understand this.

It is true, I don't have any difficulty in believing that Jonah survived inside a fish for 3 days. I have read where it has been documented, that a man in recent years actually survived being inside a large shark. A talking donkey doesn't pose a problem either, for me.

I say "Islam is wrong" because it contradicts itself. It says that the Old Testament, esp. the 5 books of Moses, were sent by Allah to mankind. That means that Allah gave mankind information about his personal name, which is there in Moses' writings. Yet Muslims do not use the name of God; they just call him "God" which is what "Allah" means. The Muslims I have spoken to are adament about Allah and Jehovah NOT being the same Person. And if Allah sent down the Torah, how could any Muslim say that it is not completely correct? Do they?

Allah says: "We sent down the Torah which contains guidance and light, in accordance with which the prophets who were obedient (to God) gave instructions to the Jews, as did the rabbis and priests, for they were the custodians and witnesses of God's writ." (Chapter 5, "The Feast," verse 44)

It looks like the Torah is from Allah, according to the Quran, and he explicitly says that it is his instructions forwarded by prophets and rabbis and priests. The Jewish rabbis will tell you that God's name is throughout the Torah in the form of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH). It is hard to miss. The Jews just don't pronounce the Divine Name. Why do Muslims deny that that is Allah's name? Allah sent it down in the Torah.

How can Muslims say that Jesus was a good man and a great prophet when they don't believe what he claimed? He claimed to be the ONLY mediator between God and men, and he claimed to have given up his own life for mankind. (I Timothy 2:5; John 14:6; Matthew 20:28) I think you'll find that Muslims don't agree with that.

What scriptures show that Jesus was the Messiah, you ask? I list the prophecy with the event and the fulfillment:

(1)Genesis 49:10....born of the tribe of Judah....Matthew 1:2-16; Luke 3:23-33; Heb.7:14

(2)Psalm 132:11; Isaiah 9:7; Isaiah 11:1,10....from the family of David the son of Jesse....Matt.1:1,6-16; Matt.9:27; Acts 13:22,23; Romans 1:3; Romans 15:8,12

(3)Isaiah 61:1,2....commissioned by God....Luke 4:18-21

(4)Isaiah 53:4....carried our sicknesses....Matt.8:16,17

(5)Isaiah 42:1-4....as Jehovah's servant, would not wrangle in the streets....Matt.12:14-21

(6)Isaiah 53:1....would not be believed in....John 12:37,38; Romans 10:11,16

(7)Isaiah 28:16; Isaiah 53:3; Psalm 69:8; Psalm 118:22,23....rejected but becomes the chief cornerstone....Matt.21:42,45,46; Acts 3:14; Acts Acts 4:11; IPeter 2:7

(8)Zechariah 13:7....the disciples scatter....Matt.26:31,56; John 16:32

(9)Psalm 2:1,2....Roman powers and leaders of Israel act together against the anointed of Jehovah....Matt.27:1,2; Mark 15:1,15; Luke 23:10-12; Acts 4:25-28

(10)Isaiah 53:8....Tried and condemned....Matt.26:57-68; Matt.27:1,2,11-26; John 18:12-14,19-24,28-40; John 19:1-16

(11)Isaiah 53:7....silent before accusers....Matt.27:12-14; Mark 14:61; Mark 15:4,5; Luke 23:9

(12)Psalm 22:16....impaled....Matt.27:35; Mark 15:24,25; Luke 23:33; John 19:18,23; John 20:25,27

(13)Psalm 22:18....lots cast for garments....Matt.27:35; John 19:23,24

(14)Isaiah 53:12....numbered with sinners....Matt.26:55,56; Matt.27:38; Luke 22:37

(15)Psalm 22:7,8....reviled while on the stake/'cross'....Matt.27:39-43; Mark 15:29-32

(16)Psalm 34:20; Exodus 12:46....no bones broken....John 19:33,36

(17)Isaiah 53:5....pierced....Matt.27:49; John 19:34,37; Revelation 1:7

(18)Isaiah 53:5,8,11,12....dies sacrificial death to carry away sins and open the way to righteous standing with God....Matt.20:28; John 1:29; Romans 3:24; Romans 4:25; ICorinth.15:3; Hebrews 9:12-15; IPeter 2:24; IJohn 2:2



There are more, but I imagine these will suffice. I don't think his followers could have caused all of these prophecies to seem fulfilled in him.

[Justin108]

#3 It records history before it has happened. The bible records historical détails and events long before (in some cases hundreds of years) before they happened. This presents its most convincing evidence of Divine authorship since humans do not have the ability to see into the future.

Can you perhaps
1) provide the predictive verses
2) prove the predictions came true after the predictions were made

The predictive verses:

"This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you, the One saying of Jerusalem, 'She will be inhabited,' and of the cities of Judah, 'They will be rebuilt, and her desolated places I shall raise up'; the One saying to the watery deep, 'Be evaporated; and all your rivers I shall dry up...the One saying of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out; even in saying of Jerusalem, "She will be rebuilt," and of the temple, "You will have your foundation laid."'

"This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that I may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be shut....'The copper doors I shall break in pieces, and the iron bars I shall cut down....I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.'"

(Isaiah 44:24,26b,27,28; Isaiah 45:1,2,5)

That prophecy was made around 200 years before the fall of Babylon. If you check with history, you will see that it came true just as the Bible says. Babylon was the world power of that day, up until the night of October 5, 539 B.C. (Gregorian calendar.) Cyrus the Great's army engineers diverted the Euphrates River and lowered the level of the moat around the city, allowing the Persians to cross over and into the city. The huge gates had been left open. They went right in and took over everything. How can anyone argue with that prophecy? It was true right down to the commander's name. 200 hundred years before Cyrus was even born.

That's just one prophecy. There are others, but the fact that this prophecy has proved true negates any reason for further inquiry to prove that the Bible is prophetically accurate.

Can you please point out where it says Cyrus will conquer Babylon? I don't see any mention of Babylon in either Isaiah 44 or 45

It is an historical fact that Cyrus conquered Babylon, so we can deduce that those Scriptures refer to Babylon, especially since the details of the prophecy coincide with historical fact.

No. We can't. The whole thing you are trying to argue is that scripture predicted the fall of Babylon, and now you selectively interpret the verse with the assumption of "oh scripture probably referred to Babylon". This deduction rests on the assumption that scripture actually can predict the future. This becomes circular reasoning.

- Scripture predicted the fall of Babylon
- We know this because if we assume that scripture refers to Babylon, then scripture predicted the flaw of Babylon
- Therefore scripture predicted the fall of Babylon

Can you see the gaping flaw in this kind of reasoning?

[Justin108]

I believe that Elijah John brought up the Quran because JW said that the Bible claims to be the word of God. EJ said, "So does the Quran." That is what caused me to compare Mohammed's integrity with the Bible writers'.

Lot offered his daughter up to be gang-raped by a mob. Noah cursed his son for his own drunkenness. Elisha had two bears attack a group of children. So why does only Muhammad's integrity matter?

I disagree with God's morals on several occasions, yet normally an apologist would tell me "you're only a man. Who are you to question God's morality?" If this is so then the same would apply to Islam. If Allah deems Muhammad worthy, who are you to question it?

Could you provide the parts in the Quran that show scientific accuracy? The Bible has a few examples of scientific accuracy. (Job 26:7, the earth hangs on nothing; Job 36:27,28, water cycle)

[Quran 51.47] And the heaven, We built it with craftsmanship and We are still expanding. (expanding universe)

[Quran 81.15-16] [Allah] I swear by the stars, who move who sweep (planetary orbits)

[Quran 23.14] Then We developed the semen into a leech. Then We developed the leech into a lump. Then We developed the lump into bones. Then We clothed the bones with flesh. Then We produced it into another creature. Most Blessed is Allah, the Best of Creators. (human embryo)

[Quran 21.30] Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the Earth were meshed together then We ripped them apart? And then We made of water everything living? Would they still not believe? (Life in the universe is water based)

Granted, I do not believe these claims to be miraculous, but they are equally as miraculous as Job.

I would also be interested to see how the Quran predicted the advent of the Bib Bang Theory.

[Quran 21.30] Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the Earth were meshed together then We ripped them apart? And then We made of water everything living? Would they still not believe?

I do not believe that there are animals in heaven, because the whole point of anyone going to heaven at all is to rule with Christ over people on the earth

"The Quran is wrong because it disagrees with Christianity". Why do you constantly fall in this trap? You cannot assume Islam is wrong solely because it disagrees with your religion. Clearly the Quranic heaven is not a place where people rule with Christ.

Mohammed apparently didn't understand this.

How do you know Muhammad is wrong and that the Bible is right? Again, you assume Christianity is correct by default

A talking donkey doesn't pose a problem either, for me.

A talking donkey is no problem for you but a flying horse is...? Okay...

I say "Islam is wrong" because it contradicts itself.

Muslims take pride in the fact that the Quran is free of contradiction. I myself do not know the Quran enough to agree or disagree. However, if you insist the Quran contradicts itself, please be so kind as to provide the contradictory statements?

If Islam is wrong because the Quran contradicts itself, can the same be said for Christianity? If I can find contradictions in the Bible, would it be fair for me to conclude that Christianity is wrong?

That means that Allah gave mankind information about his personal name, which is there in Moses' writings. Yet Muslims do not use the name of God; they just call him "God" which is what "Allah" means.

So? I know my dad's name but I still call him "dad". Is this a contradiction? Or merely a cultural sign of respect? At no point did the Quran say "God has no name". Muslims merely choose to call him "Allah" rather than by his name. This is not at all uncommon. Several cultures refer to their superiors by titles rather than names. Most Christians I know of call God "God" rather than "Yahweh/Jehovah". Are these Christians heathens as well? Is it not one of the 10 Commandments to not use the Lord's name in vain?

The Muslims I have spoken to are adament about Allah and Jehovah NOT being the same Person.

Unless you can actually quote the Quran on this, the opinion of a few Muslims are irrelevant. I know of many Christians with controversial opinions that you would likely disagree with.

It looks like the Torah is from Allah, according to the Quran, and he explicitly says that it is his instructions forwarded by prophets and rabbis and priests. The Jewish rabbis will tell you that God's name is throughout the Torah in the form of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH). It is hard to miss. The Jews just don't pronounce the Divine Name. Why do Muslims deny that that is Allah's name?

Do all Muslims deny it? Or only the handful you spoke with? Unless you can quote the Quran denying God's name is YHWH, the opinions of a few Muslims are irrelevant.

How can Muslims say that Jesus was a good man and a great prophet when they don't believe what he claimed?

What Jesus did and did not say is open to debate. The Gospels made several claims about what Jesus said and did, but they are still only claims. It is very possible for Jesus to have been a prophet without the Gospels being true. The Gospels could have been wrong.

(1)Genesis 49:10....born of the tribe of Judah....Matthew 1:2-16; Luke 3:23-33; Heb.7:14

Genesis 49 starts with

"And Jacob called his sons and said, “Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days"

Was 2000 years ago the "last days"? Anyway, the verses you use to support this (the genealogies of Matthew and Luke) blatantly contradict each other. This suggests that either one or both of these sources are wrong.

(2)Psalm 132:11; Isaiah 9:7; Isaiah 11:1,10....from the family of David the son of Jesse....Matt.1:1,6-16; Matt.9:27; Acts 13:22,23; Romans 1:3; Romans 15:8,12

Psalm 132:11 "The LORD swore an oath to David, a sure oath he will not revoke: "One of your own descendants I will place on your throne."
- Jesus was never a king.
- King Solomon is a better fit for this prophecy since he literally sat on David's throne as a literal king

Matt.1:1,6-16; Matt.9:27
- As mentioned before, the credibility of the genealogy in Matthew is less than reliable considering the blatant contradiction with the genealogy in Luke

Romans 1:3; Romans 15:8,12
If Matthew's claim of Jesus' connection is questionable, then so is Paul's claim


It is easy to claim royal connections. I can claim to be descended from British royalty. A claim is not proof, and given Luke vs. Matthew on this matter, it is clear the Bible's genealogy is not all that reliable. But let's suppose for argument sake that Matthew was right...

Matthew 1

"1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham...and Matthan begot Jacob. 16 And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ."

Jesus isn't even a descendant of David according to Matthew! Joseph was. The husband of Mary. But since Mary (supposedly) was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, Joseph is not Jesus' father. God is. For the prophecy to have been fulfilled, Mary would have to be a descendant of David, not Joseph

(3)Isaiah 61:1,2....commissioned by God....Luke 4:18-21

Luke 4:18-21

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.�
20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.�

So in Luke 4:18-21, Jesus made the claim that "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me". How is this fulfilling a prophecy?

(4)Isaiah 53:4....carried our sicknesses....Matt.8:16,17

Matthew 8:16-17

16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

“He Himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses.�

In order to claim that Jesus drove out demons, you would first have to prove that demons even exist. Then you would have to prove that Jesus actually did cast them out. As it stands, Matthew 8:16-17 is an unsupported claim

(5)Isaiah 42:1-4....as Jehovah's servant, would not wrangle in the streets....Matt.12:14-21

Matthew 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, He withdrew from there. And great multitudes[a] followed Him, and He healed them all. 16 Yet He warned them not to make Him known, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet

Here Jesus actually tried fulfilling the prophecy. I would hardly call it miraculous if you actively try to make a prediction come true. This is about as prophetic as prophesying getting a steak, then ordering a steak. It's not a prediction if you actively try to make it come true

(6)Isaiah 53:1....would not be believed in....John 12:37,38; Romans 10:11,16

Wait so the prophecy was that Jesus would not be believed in...? So if I predicted that "people will not believe I am an alien", would it make me a prophet if my prediction came true? "I'm about to make a radical claim and some people won't believe me" is not a prophecy... it's common sense. In fact, it would be harder for people not to fulfill this prophecy than to actually fulfill it. There have been many Messiah candidates over the years and every single one of them have fulfilled this prophecy.

(7)Isaiah 28:16; Isaiah 53:3; Psalm 69:8; Psalm 118:22,23....rejected but becomes the chief cornerstone....Matt.21:42,45,46; Acts 3:14; Acts Acts 4:11; IPeter 2:7

As with Isaiah 53:1, just about every Messiah candidate fulfilled this one. It is unheard of for a leader to not be rejected by some people. Again, it would be harder to not fulfill this prophecy than to fulfill it.

(8)Zechariah 13:7....the disciples scatter....Matt.26:31,56; John 16:32

The disciples were familiar with scripture. [/quote]

Zechariah 13:7
"Awake, sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is close to me!" declares the LORD Almighty. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones.

Zechariah is so laden with symbolic language that any verse can be interpreted in any number of ways. Assuming this predicts the Messiah's disciples abandoning him in hard times... well this pretty much describes human behavior. The fact that the "sheep" later came back and went on to spread the Gospels kind of makes it questionable whether this can still be considered "scattered sheep".

(9)Psalm 2:1,2....Roman powers and leaders of Israel act together against the anointed of Jehovah....Matt.27:1,2; Mark 15:1,15; Luke 23:10-12; Acts 4:25-28

Psalm 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed


So a few Roman officials and a few Israeli priests are now the "kings of the earth"?

(10)Isaiah 53:8....Tried and condemned....Matt.26:57-68; Matt.27:1,2,11-26; John 18:12-14,19-24,28-40; John 19:1-16

Fair enough. He was tried and condemned. Hardly unique but I'll give you that one

(11)Isaiah 53:7....silent before accusers....Matt.27:12-14; Mark 14:61; Mark 15:4,5; Luke 23:9

Fulfilling this prophecy was entirely in Jesus' control. If I were in Jesus' position and I wanted to go down history as the Messiah, I'd have kept silent too.

(12)Psalm 22:16....impaled....Matt.27:35; Mark 15:24,25; Luke 23:33; John 19:18,23; John 20:25,27

Psalm 22:1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.
5 They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.
6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7 All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 “He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!�
9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
You have been My God.
11 Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
13 They gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;

Looking at Psalm 22 in context, it is not even a prophecy. It's a testimony of the struggles of the author. Unless you believe the author of Psalm 22 to be Jesus himself, this is not a prophecy about Jesus. Psalm 22:16 clearly says the wicked pierced my (the author's) hands. It makes no mention of "they will pierce the hands of the Messiah". If you believe Psalm 22 to actually be about Jesus, then please explain Psalm 22:6? "But I am a worm, and no man". There are pretty harsh words about the Messiah, don't you think? Are you of the opinion that the Messiah is a worm? (metaphorically speaking of course)

(13)Psalm 22:18....lots cast for garments....Matt.27:35; John 19:23,24

As explained above, Psalm 22 is not a prophecy

(14)Isaiah 53:12....numbered with sinners....Matt.26:55,56; Matt.27:38; Luke 22:37

Fair enough. So Jesus was wrongly convicted. But this is basically a repetition of the earlier prophecy Jesus apparently fulfilled in that he was tried and convinced. So far Jesus fulfilled one prophecy, and not a unique one at that.

(15)Psalm 22:7,8....reviled while on the stake/'cross'....Matt.27:39-43; Mark 15:29-32

Psalm 22 is still not a prophecy

(16)Psalm 34:20; Exodus 12:46....no bones broken....John 19:33,36

As with Psalm 22, Psalm 34 is not a prophecy. There is not a single mention of the Messiah or the Son of God in any part of Psalm 34. In the context of Psalm 34, the author clearly meant that God will protect the righteous person and protect all his bones from breaking.

As for Exodus 12:46... again, not a prophecy... those are Passover regulations... Wow you must be desperate for prophecies if you list this as one of them.

(17)Isaiah 53:5....pierced....Matt.27:49; John 19:34,37; Revelation 1:7

Matthew 27:49 The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."

What does Matthew 27:49 have to do with "pierced"...?

John 19:34,37
- considering the fact that the vast majority of weapons at that time pierced skin, the odds of Jesus being pierced at one point or another was pretty likely.

Revelation 1:7
- this never happened... why are you listing this as a prophecy that Jesus fulfilled?

(18)Isaiah 53:5,8,11,12....dies sacrificial death to carry away sins and open the way to righteous standing with God....Matt.20:28; John 1:29; Romans 3:24; Romans 4:25; ICorinth.15:3; Hebrews 9:12-15; IPeter 2:24; IJohn 2:2

All we know is that Jesus died and was crucified. There is no indication that he was "sacrificed" to "carry our sins". This is simply an interpretation made by believers. All we know for a fact is that Jesus was sentenced to death by the Romans. That's it.

[onewithhim]

#3 It records history before it has happened. The bible records historical détails and events long before (in some cases hundreds of years) before they happened. This presents its most convincing evidence of Divine authorship since humans do not have the ability to see into the future.

Can you perhaps
1) provide the predictive verses
2) prove the predictions came true after the predictions were made

The predictive verses:

"This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you, the One saying of Jerusalem, 'She will be inhabited,' and of the cities of Judah, 'They will be rebuilt, and her desolated places I shall raise up'; the One saying to the watery deep, 'Be evaporated; and all your rivers I shall dry up...the One saying of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out; even in saying of Jerusalem, "She will be rebuilt," and of the temple, "You will have your foundation laid."'

"This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that I may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be shut....'The copper doors I shall break in pieces, and the iron bars I shall cut down....I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.'"

(Isaiah 44:24,26b,27,28; Isaiah 45:1,2,5)

That prophecy was made around 200 years before the fall of Babylon. If you check with history, you will see that it came true just as the Bible says. Babylon was the world power of that day, up until the night of October 5, 539 B.C. (Gregorian calendar.) Cyrus the Great's army engineers diverted the Euphrates River and lowered the level of the moat around the city, allowing the Persians to cross over and into the city. The huge gates had been left open. They went right in and took over everything. How can anyone argue with that prophecy? It was true right down to the commander's name. 200 hundred years before Cyrus was even born.

That's just one prophecy. There are others, but the fact that this prophecy has proved true negates any reason for further inquiry to prove that the Bible is prophetically accurate.

Can you please point out where it says Cyrus will conquer Babylon? I don't see any mention of Babylon in either Isaiah 44 or 45

It is an historical fact that Cyrus conquered Babylon, so we can deduce that those Scriptures refer to Babylon, especially since the details of the prophecy coincide with historical fact.

No. We can't. The whole thing you are trying to argue is that scripture predicted the fall of Babylon, and now you selectively interpret the verse with the assumption of "oh scripture probably referred to Babylon". This deduction rests on the assumption that scripture actually can predict the future. This becomes circular reasoning.

- Scripture predicted the fall of Babylon
- We know this because if we assume that scripture refers to Babylon, then scripture predicted the flaw of Babylon
- Therefore scripture predicted the fall of Babylon

Can you see the gaping flaw in this kind of reasoning?

No, not really. The Scripture could refer to non other than the fall of Babylon. One can discern this if one will take the time to read the following:

2 Chronicles 36:15-23

Ezra chapters 1 through 6



Even non-religious historians know that Cyrus conquered Babylon.