William's Random Ramblings

[William]

I am attempting to save enough credits (5000) in order to then apply for my own thread in the Members Notes section of the Miscellaneous forum. If you feel inclined to donate towards this cause, then much appreciation... ...and thanks in advance...

Meantime I figure it can't hurt to place stuff in here which is inspired by other posts in other parts of the forum to which I think meander away from thread topics of debate, but also so I can keep better organisation of my input on this message board, which is - after-all - primarily for the purpose of debate. I am more inclined to desire discussion and find my lack of interest in (and even my distaste of) debate in the usual sense of the meaning of debating, to be a bias I am happy enough to work around.

So, with that said, I would like to start this by making my first reply to Blastcat re;

[center]The idea of Worship- what does it mean?[/center]

[Replying to post 36 by William]

To begin with, there has to be (as with everything) a common position of agreement in order to then move forward with intelligence.

I agree.

Good. Moving forward with intelligence then...

What do you mean by 'worship' in regard to your comment re 'The Father', Blastcat?

Hows this for starters, it was the very first search result I got from Google :

the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.

Okay - that'll do nicely.

So in relation to your statement;

They read a word like "Father" and worship THAT.

You are saying that [they - some people] have a feeling of reverence and adoration when they read a word like "Father", and in relation to the idea that God is a 'Father' (as per Jesus) then the connection in relation to the two concepts, one being GOD and the other being FATHER, is about a sense of reverence and adoration in the believer regarding that combination of ideas...would that be a fair enough assessment of what you are saying Blastcat?

If you care to clarify this, I would like to understand your perspective on the subject, as I have things to say about it myself.

Well, when it comes to the word "Father" when applying it to something supernatural, I don't THINK that most theists mean "biological human male progenitor with a penis".

I agree with this. But I also think that they still have a sense of the idea that the deity is masculine in nature as per human (and other) males.

Would you agree?

I don't think that most theists think that God has sexual organs. I think the term is MEANT metaphorically.

The metaphor being about the role of the male within human society, transferred onto the idea of GOD, in order to invoke the overall authority often equated with families and social order in general...the masculine energy if you will...would you agree?

So, I have to think that people who worship this "Father" god are using the term metaphorically. Perhaps some of them mean that the part of the pantheon they call "Father" is ACTING like a father would act, authoritative, punishing, angry all the time about politics, whatever.

Perhaps this has some merit. Certainly Jesus [what is attributed to him having said] seems to bring that into the idea. But I also see that it isn't all about the fatherly role being ONLY those things.

Would you agree?

Also - would it be fair to say that in individual cases, HOW the individual has experienced (or is experiencing) the Father-Figure in there subjective reality can influence HOW the idea of 'Father' is projected BY said individual?

Would you agree?

A Father to son conversation:

"Son, why don't you go fetch the newspaper.

Oh yeah, and I love you.. now go down to earth in order to get KILLED, like a good boy. We'll see you in about ohhhhh 30 years or so."

___________________


You know, a quite normal kind of Father/son conversation.

Now-now Blastcat. I thought we agreed from the go-get that we would approach this with intelligence? Your remark is more of a sign that you do not understand the dynamics of the relationship between Jesus and his father and that you would perhaps rather remain in a sort of clowning around position than try and understand that?

Or perhaps it is more related to your own personal experience of 'what a father is and how a father behaves' that influences writing what you did?

I am quite happy to give something of my understanding of the relationship as per the story if it genuinely would interest you. If you prefer to make jokes about it, that of course is your prerogative.

For now I will leave the subject at that and wait for your response. If you don't want to 'go there' then fair enough. I will probably use this thread to share my thoughts on the subject anyway...

[Monta]

[Replying to William]


Quote:
Please stay on the foundation of eternal words of Christ.


Are you suggesting that I am not?

If so, please elaborate.//

Not suggesting anything.
You have misunderstood my whole post.

[William]

[Replying to William]

Please stay on the foundation of eternal words of Christ.

Are you suggesting that I am not?

If so, please elaborate.

Not suggesting anything.
You have misunderstood my whole post.

Perhaps I have perhaps I haven't. I cannot tell because you haven't elaborated.

I am fairly certain though, that while I may indeed have misunderstood some of what you said, I did not misunderstand all of what you said Monta.

[William]

[center]The Hangups of Human History
Building bridges and getting over things.
The journey of the species "Human"
aka "You, Man!"
(pay attention!)[/center]

Something I wrote down after GOD showed me some things in my mind realted to the external world;


[center]Motor Man

You don't wanna lose control
You don't wanna even try
You're nailed to the Power Pole
Waiting for the day you die.

Tell me what you're ganna do?
Tell me where you're ganna go?
Tell me what you're going through...
...or do you even know...

Motor Man?

Motor Man where ya going
Running on overdrive?
What lies ahead is coming
Ain't no ay you can...step aside
Ain't no ay you can...run and hide


I see the light I see the light I see the light now!
I start again upon the road that never ends...

You don't wanna cross the bridge
You don't want the other side
Keeping all your feelings hid
Waiting for the day you die.[/center]

Seems to me that both atheism and theism don't presently offer any way of getting over it and getting on with it in relation to the human 'sins' of the past.

Condemnation is flung like the proverbial hitting the fan.

Everyone involved is consequently covered in it.

[William]

[center]Light is in formation
I see the light I see the light I see the light now!

[Linky][/center]

[William]

[quote="JehovahsWitness"]

To my knowledge "immortality" is only spoken of as being a reward for certain faithful. What is the scriptural basis for saying "humans" were originally created immortal*?

- do you believe Satan is immortal?
- do you believe the wicked are immortal?

- do you believe God can destroy them (as in put an end to their existence) but will never choose to do this?

- do you believe God cannot (does not have the ability to) destroy them (put an end to their existence)?

Why?


*by immortal I mean basically "indestructible"
_______________________________________

[center]How I Deal With Apparent Contradictions in Relation to Biblical Beliefs
Is it really a case of right and wrong interpretations?
Can dualism be aligned?[/center]

I have been reading this thread and within Christendom it appears that there are various beliefs about the existence of Hell and what that means, depending as ever on what type of Christian one is.

There is no doubt at all that it is a disturbing aspect of NT teaching, specifically as Jesus is attributed as bringing the subject into focus as it were and because of the contradictions of belief systems within Christendom specific to the subject of Hell, it shows yet another example of the confusion of 'a house divided'.

Contradiction basically creates 'houses' under the general umbrella of Christendom.

When members of these houses argue their interpretations of the bible, and those arguments show plainly that there are contradictions, the best thing to do is to place judgment of the contradictions aside rather than try to decide which of the interpretations are true and which are false.

When it comes to the subject of Hell, there are other places to look for data regarding that. I have found that data to be helpful in trying to understand if such a place exists, then what is its function?

In this post I give my opinion of what is hell and where did it originate from as an idea and what purpose it has in relation to consciousness.

When it comes to the different houses of Christendom and the contradictions therein I can see that all beliefs about the subject in question can be correct IF one assumes that Consciousness in an undivided state never had a beginning and will never have an end.

In that case, Consciousness by default is indestructible.

When it comes to beliefs about conscious beings, then these beings all derive their consciousnesses from the undivided Source Consciousness and as such, all 'creatures of consciousness' are aspects of the Source Consciousness. (More about this can be read in this thread.)

Since Consciousness is indestructible, it is necessary to have a way of containing aspects of consciousness which have chosen to explore, experience and define themselves through 'the dark path' - essentially through choosing evil over good as the preferred way of using the aspect of consciousness that they are. (Of using their selves).

In doing so this has an effect on human society here on earth, and is largely in control of human societies although the differences therein are measurable to extent of damage inflicted, evil is evil and the path is wrought with suffering and never ends well for those involved.

When it comes to GOD's part in all this, the obvious question is why - if GOD is good, are we allowed to - not only experience being under the oppression and suppression systems of disparity administered by evil intentions, but also having to endure the temptation of choosing evil over good, and sometimes not even having the ability to properly discern which is which? (which is largely WHY there is contradiction - not only in religions, but in pretty much every aspect of human social interaction.)

Good and Evil are contradictions of each other.

So we exist within a contradiction.

The obvious answer to that question 'why?' is that we come, not from a place of light but of darkness. We come, not from knowledge, but from ignorance.


Thus our idea(s) of GOD also come from ignorance and darkness and thus they tend towards being contradictory in nature.

Thus, if we come from the position of evil in the first place, and from that position we have an opportunity to seek out and find the 'light' or the knowledge which will release us from contradiction , confusion and inability to discern the false and deceptive methods which presently and historically have manipulated humanity toward evil agenda under systems of suppression and deception.

Rehabilitation.

If we are experiencing such and have the opportunity to rehabilitate (if we as individuals choose that way) BUT we also come from a position of evil/ignorance, then how can we really 'rehabilitate' because all we have to rehabilitate to is what we came from?

This is true unless we have also been deceived as to 'where we came from' by that which wants to continue to rule over us under the evil systems of disparity.

This is why I say that there must be a First Source in relation to an undivided (non-duality) Consciousness which has never had a beginning and will never end.

The default attitude of such Consciousness is neither pure good or pure evil but capable of experiencing both states - even simultaneously - through the process of duality - splitting conscious aspects of its self into two distinctly opposing 'camps' and then gathering that data of experience to itself (in its undivided state) and from this LEARNING the difference and thus no longer being ignorant about good and evil concepts.

The potential is to go in either direction but the intention is not to remain in either position and therein is the rehabilitation - to come back to itself having thus learned from the contradictory experiences and no longer being ignorant.

We as individual human beings are part of that process, and as we are experiencing what we are experiencing, the process must therefore still be ongoing.

Indeed it is, and we can confidently say that the process is certainly complex.

The fact of the matter is that having a human experience allows for each of us to be actual participators in the process and make our choices as we will to make them. The idea being that we have access to data which will help us to step out of ignorance and into knowledge.

Presently we should EXPECT opposition to the rehabilitation process from those also within it who have already made their choice to support evil as their preferred option and in that, actively keep the knowledge they have (in relation to maintaining those systems of disparity), hidden from the confused and contradicted minds of ignorance.

Matthew 23:13
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter.

Revelation 18:4
Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues."


Rehabilitate.

[William]

[center]Is it really that important that GOD is understood to be a male entity?
Perhaps it is more productive to drop such assumptions
[Linky][/center]

[William]

[center]The better we are at being honest with our SELF...
...The better we will be at being honest with others.
(this isn't a competition you know)
Integrating new ideas to replace old ones.


[Linky #1]

[Linky #2][/center]

[William]

[center]Arguments against the notion of 'Burden of Proof' regarding ideas of GOD.

Stacking them up.

[Linky #1]

[Linky #2][/center]

[postroad]

[Replying to post 17 by William]
I would be compelled to acknowledge God the Father and Jesus the Son if presented with this scientifically demonstratable evidence.

John 17:20-25New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.

[William]

[center]Is there any such thing as 'Objective Morality'?
Defining 'Objective' - Easy enough.
Defining 'Morality' - Now there's a roller-coaster ride!

What I say;
[linky]

More on That.
[linky][/center]