Theists sometimes DO ask questions.

[Zzyzx]

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Theists sometimes DO ask questions. Here is an example from a current thread:

And now, I ask you a question.

What if you’re right?

Right about what?

Reading my signature with some comprehension indicates that my position is that ANY of the thousands of proposed 'gods' MAY be real and may affect human lives – AND that I await verifiable evidence upon which to base an informed, intelligent, reasoned decision.

Is there any reason that I should 'hurry up' and make a decision when the ONLY 'evidence' presented consists of unverifiable tales and testimonials (ancient or modern) plus emotional appeals? I do not take anyone's unverifiable word as a basis for making ANY important decisions. Should I make an exception for religious matters? If so, why?

What if mindless, random energy is “all there is, all there was, and all there ever will be�?

I take NO position regarding 'mindless, random energy'. Kindly debate what I actually present.

What if all we are is a temporary arrangement of matter? A pattern, here today and gone, forever, tomorrow?

Notice that I take no position on that matter. Kindly debate what I actually say rather than things I do not say.

What possible difference could that make? In fact — what possible difference could anything make?

My life and the lives of (some) others make a difference to me, as does the environment, because I (we) live in the real world.

And what difference would it make if I believed otherwise?

What you believe could not possibly make any less difference to me. Discussing / debating these ideas with you involved is simply a way for me to present READERS with ideas that contrast with those presented by Theists.

I trust that some / many readers are fully capable of evaluating the merits, credibility, verifiability of what is presented and to use whatever they find has merit in their own thinking.

If I chose to believe a complex, imaginary fable about an eternal Mind that created a space-time environment; a fable which explained the cause of man’s depravity, and the way out of it —even if it was all just an ancient and ongoing fabrication, what difference does it make?

That belief makes NO difference UNLESS and UNTIL it is presented in public debate as though true. In which case, I challenge any claim of truth and accuracy – asking for verifiable evidence to support the pronouncements.

When the 'evidence' presented is nothing more than unverifiable tales and testimonials (ancient or modern, oral or written), readers are invited to consider its credibility.

And what difference does it make that energy occasionally arranges itself in patterns such as the deformed child you pictured?

I pictures no deformed child. Perhaps there are some wires crossed?

Or generates patterns in the matter that composes human brains that motivates them to slaughter each other over territories or genetics or ideas?

Human brains have great potential to instigate actions in all manner of directions – which include slaughtering people or helping people.

Many Religionists seem to think that religion is what keeps them from slaughtering (or raping or stealing or whatever) and that religion is what motivates them to do benevolent things. Perhaps that is true for them personally – but does not extend beyond them to everyone else.

What difference does it make what I do with my own little pattern of energy, during the brief period of time it is integrated and possesses the consciousness to make determinations as to what it does?

It makes no difference at all to me what you 'do with your own little pattern of energy' PROVIDED it does not affect me or others I care about.

And if, for instance, someone should be in the way of my obtaining some objective that would please my consciousness, what difference does it make what I do to them in order to remove them as an obstacle?

If I am the 'obstacle to be removed' so someone can accomplish an objective, they are likely to 'meet their maker' before intended (any my attitude is not hypothetical).

I’m just asking. Do you have an answer for me?

I typically attempt to answer coherent questions. I am always prepared to substantiate any claims I make or arguments I present.

Is it possible that even if your belief system is true,

You have shown that you have absolutely no comprehension of my belief system.

and mindless matter and energy is all that ever was or will be:

I do not and have not thought or said anything suggesting 'mindless matter'. That is a 'stinky fish' (red herring) thrown in, perhaps to try to make an argument.

that it would be BETTER if we lived as though we were subject to living forever, based on what we do during our temporary pattern of consciousness, before we revert back to our eternal elements of mindless matter-energy?

I see no 'better' in real life by those who profess to being 'subject to . . .� some sort of afterlife. Christians who preach such things are incarcerated at rates no 'better' than other groups, have divorce rates that are no 'better' than others, and have half a million abortions per year in the US (while condemning the practice).

WHERE is the 'better'?

Even if that would mean “living a lie�, so to speak?

Those who find benefit in 'living a lie' are welcome to do so. I prefer to live by what I can understand and learn about the real world.

Or would that make any difference, either?

Many would apparently be LOST without their religion telling them what to think and do.

And if so — in what way?

Perhaps those who rely upon one of the thousands of gods or thousands of religions are well advised to keep doing so (to avoid running amok if they had to rely upon their own ethics, judgment, discernment, decision-making).

However, the dependent should not attempt to inflict their limitations and personal problems onto others – who do not share those limitations and problems.

[William]

[Replying to post 20 by Divine Insight]

Well what can I say? Even I do not self identify with being a Christian but plainly see that your argument re opinion of the biblical GOD is far too sweeping and focused on the evil aspects (as per human understanding in relation to Hebrew reports about the god) without consideration for the good aspects (also as per human understanding in relation to Hebrew reports about the god) and that is just the OT!

I think you are being very lopsided and that perhaps you are letting your personal bias get in the way of sound reasonable interpretation of the verifiable evidence, and this is causing you to misrepresent the GOD in question.

So - anyway, I put it to the Christians on this board. Maybe you are right about them or maybe you are not.

It won't personally change my opinion re the GOD, regardless but it might help me understand your position as an atheist and whether you are truly misrepresenting the GOD in your opinion of him, or there is truth in the matter re your opinion of Christians - which as you say - has developed over the years to you current state of thinking.

*shrugs*

[Divine Insight]

It won't personally change my opinion re the GOD, regardless but it might help me understand your position as an atheist and whether you are truly misrepresenting the GOD in your opinion of him, or there is truth in the matter re your opinion of Christians - which as you say - has developed over the years to you current state of thinking.

You are simply mistaken to think that I even have an opinion about "Christians".

My evaluation has to do entirely with the Hebrew Bible. I don't really care what other people who call themselves "Christians" might think. The fact of the matter is that no Christian Apologists or Christian Theologians have been able to explain the Bible in a consistent or compelling manner. In fact, they can't even convince each other. That's not just my opinion, all you need to do is look around at all the disagreeing sects and denominations of Christianity to see the truth of that.

What I have recognized over the years is the truth of what I've just stated in the above paragraph.

Moreover, I can, and have, proven repeatedly that the Bible contains extreme self-contradictions. This isn't a matter of opinion anymore than my observation that there can be no rational solution to the square root of the number 2 is my opinion.

So your accusation that all I'm doing is standing by an opinion that has no basis in fact is simply false.

The Bible cannot possibly be true, as written. Period. No opinion required.

The only people who believe otherwise are those who are in denial of the facts.

Face it, there are no Christian theologians or apologists who can clear up the self-contradictions in these ancient stories. They can't even convince each other of their obviously failed apologies.

So this idea that it can all just come down to opinion is nonsense

It's just as much nonsense as it would be if you were to proclaim that my conclusion that there can be no rational solution to the square root of 2 is just my opinion.

The Bible cannot be true as written.

In fact, if you pay close attention you notice that ALL CHRISTIANS AGREE with this. They all need to make apologies based on interpretations that REJECT what the Bible literally says.

So they are in agreement with me. The Bible cannot be true as written.

Christians won't even argue with me on that point.

[William]

It won't personally change my opinion re the GOD, regardless but it might help me understand your position as an atheist and whether you are truly misrepresenting the GOD in your opinion of him, or there is truth in the matter re your opinion of Christians - which as you say - has developed over the years to you current state of thinking.

You are simply mistaken to think that I even have an opinion about "Christians".

You should check out you own words regarding Christians here in this post you created because undeniably therein, are your opinions about them, on record.

[Divine Insight]

It won't personally change my opinion re the GOD, regardless but it might help me understand your position as an atheist and whether you are truly misrepresenting the GOD in your opinion of him, or there is truth in the matter re your opinion of Christians - which as you say - has developed over the years to you current state of thinking.

You are simply mistaken to think that I even have an opinion about "Christians".

You should check out you own words regarding Christians here in this post you created because undeniably therein, are your opinions about them, on record.

And that post is completely in harmony with what I just told you. This isn't about Christians. It's about the inability of anyone, no matter what label they chose to label themselves with, to offer a consistent view of the Biblical scriptures.

We tend to call these people "Christians" because that's typically what they call themselves. They are Christian Theists, Christian Clergy, Christian Apologists, Christian Theologians, etc.

Moreover, often times when I refer to "The Christians" I'm actually talking about the authors who actually wrote the Gospels rumors of Jesus proclaiming him to "The Christ". But when I talk about modern day "Christians" with respect to taking a position on the Bible I'm talking about the people I just listed in my previous paragraph. In fact, you can include Christian Evangelists in with that as well.

The people I'm NOT talking about are the masses (or "Sheep" as they are often referred to in Christendom). Most of those people don't even know what's in the Bible exactly. They just believe on pure faith based on what they have been taught by parents, clergy, evangelists, etc.

This is a debate forum. I'm only interested in debating with people who actually know something about the Bible. I'm not interested in debating with people who just believe in the religion because they think they will be "saved" from damnation or be rewarded with eternal life if they believe. They are the "sheep". The innocent victims of the cult so-to-speak.

My own mother was a very devout "lamb of God". She didn't even want to talk about any problems there might be in the Bible because her belief was based entirely on FAITH. If there are problems in the Bible she was certain that God could explain them away. That's the mentality of the "sheep".

You are trying to push your own perception of me onto me. And quite frankly my dear, I couldn't care less. Your misguided perception of me is totally irrelevant. More over you're supposed to be addressing the issues and not what YOU THINK of other members.

Unless you can offer a coherent explanation for the Biblical stories as they are actually written without leading to extreme contradictions, then you have nothing to offer on topics that I debate.

Your misguided opinion of how you think I view Christians in general is totally irrelevant.

[William]

It won't personally change my opinion re the GOD, regardless but it might help me understand your position as an atheist and whether you are truly misrepresenting the GOD in your opinion of him, or there is truth in the matter re your opinion of Christians - which as you say - has developed over the years to you current state of thinking.

You are simply mistaken to think that I even have an opinion about "Christians".

You should check out you own words regarding Christians here in this post you created because undeniably therein, are your opinions about them, on record.

It won't personally change my opinion re the GOD, regardless but it might help me understand your position as an atheist and whether you are truly misrepresenting the GOD in your opinion of him, or there is truth in the matter re your opinion of Christians - which as you say - has developed over the years to you current state of thinking.

You are simply mistaken to think that I even have an opinion about "Christians".

You should check out you own words regarding Christians here in this post you created because undeniably therein, are your opinions about them, on record.

*Smile*

My own mother was a very devout "lamb of God". She didn't even want to talk about any problems there might be in the Bible because her belief was based entirely on FAITH. If there are problems in the Bible she was certain that God could explain them away. That's the mentality of the "sheep".

And there too, you have an opinion about your mother.

"Mom has the mentality of a sheep."

Don't you think it a tad silly to deny that what you are saying about Christians, is indeed your opinion of them based upon your own subjective interpretations?

Because clearly, what you are saying about Christians in general IS your opinion about Christians in general regardless of whether you know them personally or not.

[Divine Insight]

And there too, you have an opinion about your mother.

"Mom has the mentality of a sheep."

Don't you think it a tad silly to deny that what you are saying about Christians, is indeed your opinion of them based upon your own subjective interpretations?

Because clearly, what you are saying about Christians in general IS your opinion about Christians in general regardless of whether you know them personally or not.

It's not my opinion. If you have a problem with referring to Christians as sheep you'll need to take that up with Jesus.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

So these terms come from the Christian scriptures themselves. Christians are proud to be the sheep of Jesus.

You seem to just be in denial about what Christianity is all about. If you think it's a derogatory judgement to call Christians "sheep", you'll have to take that up with Jesus. I didn't coin that term, he did.

By the way, my mother, as with many Christians, couldn't be happier to be recognized as a "Sheep of Jesus".

So that was her CLAIM, not my opinion.

See, you have absolutely no clue what you are even talking about.

It's not my opinion that many Christians proclaim that they are "sheep". That's what Jesus called them, and they are more than happy to wear that label. This is part and parcel to this religion. It's right in the scriptures. If you don't even know that much about Christianity then you probably shouldn't be discussing the religion.

[William]

And there too, you have an opinion about your mother.

"Mom has the mentality of a sheep."

Don't you think it a tad silly to deny that what you are saying about Christians, is indeed your opinion of them based upon your own subjective interpretations?

Because clearly, what you are saying about Christians in general IS your opinion about Christians in general regardless of whether you know them personally or not.

It's not my opinion. If you have a problem with referring to Christians as sheep you'll need to take that up with Jesus.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

So these terms come from the Christian scriptures themselves. Christians are proud to be the sheep of Jesus.

You seem to just be in denial about what Christianity is all about. If you think it's a derogatory judgement to call Christians "sheep", you'll have to take that up with Jesus. I didn't coin that term, he did.

By the way, my mother, as with many Christians, couldn't be happier to be recognized as a "Sheep of Jesus".

So that was her CLAIM, not my opinion.

See, you have absolutely no clue what you are even talking about.

It's not my opinion that many Christians proclaim that they are "sheep". That's what Jesus called them, and they are more than happy to wear that label. This is part and parcel to this religion. It's right in the scriptures. If you don't even know that much about Christianity then you probably shouldn't be discussing the religion.

I didn't argue that Christians feel it is a derogatory judgement being called 'My Sheep' by Jesus.
My argument is that your interpretation about Christians and their beliefs are far too sweeping to be regarded as truthful argument when your comments regarding them are obviously just your opinion, and your opinion here does not count as truthful, because it variably isn't.

And I will quote you again as to how you referred to your mother so that you can have the opportunity to be clear about why I am protesting your sweeping statements about Christians as being - not the truth, but rather - simply your opinions dressed up (and thinly veiled) as the 'truth'.

"Mom has the mentality of a sheep."

That is undoubtedly derogatory. Your mom is a human being so at least has the mentality of a human being and I dear say she would not agree with you that her faith based belief systems related to her understanding of Jesus in connection with being one of his 'sheep' is not at all related to her having the mentality of a 'sheep'.

What you have done is simply take the whole thing out of context in order that you might then justify your opinion as being truthful.

There is nothing about you opinion on this which can be seen in any way to being truthful.

Perhaps you would be better off learning how to understand Christian perspective and leaving the sweeping judgments out of your opinions. That way you will find a better platform for the truth to align with your opinion.

Perhaps start by acknowledging the metaphor related to the reason Jesus called his followers his 'Sheep'.

I can help you make a start in that direction and maybe eventually your opinion will truly align with your chosen avatar name, "Divine Insight".

John 10 New International Version (NIV)

The Good Shepherd and His Sheep

“Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.
2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.�
6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.


By all accounts, it seems that it is not only the Pharisees who do not understand what Jesus was speaking about...

[Divine Insight]

My argument is that your interpretation about Christians and their beliefs are far too sweeping,...

I couldn't care less what people who call themselves Christians believe. I thought I already made that clear?

That is undoubtedly derogatory. Your mom is a human being so at least has the mentality of a human being and I dear say she would not agree with you that her faith based belief systems related to her understanding of Jesus in connection with being one of his 'sheep' is not at all related to her having the mentality of a 'sheep'.

That's YOUR JUDGEMENT, not mine.

I never said that it was derogatory. You're the one who seems to be thinking that.

And YES, my mother would be in total agreement that she was not the slightest bit worried about questioning the religion or intellectually analyzing it for possible errors. She totally understood what it means to believe on PURE FAITH and that was good enough for her.

And if YOU judge that to be derogatory then that's YOUR JUDGEMENT, not mine.

In fact, my mother was extremely intelligent. She would openly confess to everyone that she believed ON PURE FAITH. She never claimed to "know" that any God actually exists.

So my mother was way ahead of you on this.

There is nothing about you opinion on this which can be seen in any way to being truthful.

There is nothing about your totally misguided perceptions about me, or my mother, that are truthful.

Everything you are claiming about me is nothing more than your own twisted imagination. You are jumping to totally unwarranted conclusions as well as clearly trying to make a personal attack. In fact, this better stop real soon!

By all accounts, it seems that it is not only the Pharisees who do not understand what Jesus was speaking about...

Excuse me?

YOU make a derogatory conclusion about the meaning of "sheep" and then turn around and try to throw that in my face.

My position is that the Bible cannot be true as written because it contains extreme self-contradictions that cannot be resolved.

What modern day people who call themselves "Christians' believe is totally irrelevant to me.

What part of that are you having trouble understanding?

All of your accusations toward me about what I think about Christians are totally uncalled for. I don't debate what modern day Christians might believe. In fact, I hold that very few of them, if any, believe the same things. And their thousands of disagreeing denominations drive home that point.

In fact, just the other day a Jehovah's Witness told me that JWs believe that the Catholic Church is the "Whore of Babylon". So modern day Christians are apparently quick to degrade each other, they hardly need my help.

[William]

[Replying to post 28 by Divine Insight]

"Mom has the mentality of a sheep."

Q: So you were not being derogatory?

Q: Are you able to understand that others might see such expression as being derogatory?
Q: Can you not consider the wisdom of being careful about how you express yourself?

I couldn't care less what people who call themselves Christians believe.

Q: Are you able to see that Christians might see such expression as being bigoted, especially if you then criticism them?
Q: If you truly didn't care less wouldn't that mean that you have nothing to say about them or the subject of Christianity, positive or negative, because you are indifferent?

You are jumping to totally unwarranted conclusions as well as clearly trying to make a personal attack.

I rebuked you for your clearly personal attack on your mother and on Christians in general, AND I gave good evidence as to WHY I did so.

[Divine Insight]

Q: So you were not being derogatory?

No. I was simply pointing out that when pure faith is involved the dogma isn't questioned. Whether or not that position should be viewed as demeaning is up to the individual assessing the situation. Obviously you assess that situation as being demeaning. I don't.

Q: Are you able to understand that others might see such expression as being derogatory?

Are you able to understand that some readers might not see that as being derogatory?

Q: Can you not consider the wisdom of being careful about how you express yourself?

I don't believe in walking on eggshells to protect thin-skinned individuals.

Q: Are you able to see that Christians might see such expression as being bigoted, especially if you then criticism them?

I don't criticize Christians. I debate the Biblical dogma.

Where have I criticized a Christian? In fact, on these forums it's considered uncivil to criticize another member. That's not permitted here.

Q: If you truly didn't care less wouldn't that mean that you have nothing to say about them or the subject of Christianity, positive or negative, because you are indifferent?

I debate the Biblical scriptures. Not personal opinions.

You are jumping to totally unwarranted conclusions as well as clearly trying to make a personal attack.

I rebuked you for your clearly personal attack on your mother and on Christians in general, AND I gave good evidence as to WHY I did so.

I made no personal attack on my mother.

She would be the first to agree with me!

She fully understood what PURE FAITH means.

She never claimed to know that any God actually exists.

She never claimed that the Bible makes sense or that it can be logically defended in any way.

If you asked her if a God exists she would answer HONESTY!

She would say, "I believe on faith that a God exist".

If you then pressed her harder demanding to know if a God exists she would reply to you: "Do you not know what on faith means?"

My mother was no dummy.

The only reason you think I have attacked her is because you have no understanding of who she was, or what I meant.

So please climb down off your high horse before you fall off it and hurt yourself.

And quit accusing other people of things when you obviously have no clue what you are talking about. I would never degrade or attack my mother. My mother understood what pure faith is, and I highly recommend that other Christians take a lesson from her. She was absolutely brilliant and fully understood what "Faith" means.