Was Jesus' death necessary? If so, why?

[Justin108]

Was Jesus' death necessary? In what way did Jesus' death/sacrifice benefit humanity? Could God not achieve what he intended without Jesus dying?

[Monta]

[Replying to post 50 by rikuoamero]


"Even if this were true, compare that to human courts, where people like Chelsea Manning, who were found guilty by courts, are released from prison with no-one having to die or serve their time in their place.
They're just released, with a stroke of the president's pen.
Funny how God can't do that. Jesus HAS to die for it to happen for...reasons. "

American prisons are full of mostly young people under 30.
Perhaps ones who could not afford justice?
Per poppulation I think China held first place now overtaken by US.

As dor dying, too many of the die in prisons.

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 50 by rikuoamero]


"Even if this were true, compare that to human courts, where people like Chelsea Manning, who were found guilty by courts, are released from prison with no-one having to die or serve their time in their place.
They're just released, with a stroke of the president's pen.
Funny how God can't do that. Jesus HAS to die for it to happen for...reasons. "

American prisons are full of mostly young people under 30.
Perhaps ones who could not afford justice?
Per poppulation I think China held first place now overtaken by US.

As dor dying, too many of the die in prisons.

You're completely missing his point.

His point is
- Humans can pardon people without sacrificing anyone
- God cannot pardon people without sacrificing Jesus

Why?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 51 by Monta]

Care to explain what relevance the age of the prisoners or which nation has the most inmates has with regards to what I've been arguing?

[Redhawk]

Christ provides for forgiveness for untold millions of people.

You've got Chelsea Manning.

Do you not see my point?

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Obama managed to forgive Chelsea Manning without sacrificing anyone. Why couldn't God do the same?

Two points here....

My first point is that Obama isn't God. Obama cannot raise the dead and thus has no authority within the scope of God's law.

God is unchangeable. What He says is fixed for all time and all eternity. When God says that the soul who sins will die, then that is immutable divine law.
Since God is not willing for all to die, God provided the punishment by dying Himself. God died that those who believe in Him would not.

My second point is one of legal order regarding justice vs. mercy.
Where there is justice there can be no mercy and where there is mercy there is no justice.
Chelsea Manning was pardoned mercifully by President Obama, but justice had to be denied for Obama to do it.
Manning is free, but there is no justice in it at all.

Justice and mercy embrace on the cross of Christ.
The sacrifice of Christ allowed God to exercise justice AND to be merciful.
This is possible with God, but impossible for man.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Justin108]

When God says that the soul who sins will die, then that is immutable divine law.
Since God is not willing for all to die, God provided the punishment by dying Himself.

But God is not the soul who sins, so how can he die for us?

Ezekiel 18:20 is pretty precise on this
"The soul that sins shall die"

By having God die for us, the price (i.e the soul who sins) remains unpaid.

The sacrifice of Christ allowed God to exercise justice AND to be merciful.

Please explain to me how the death of an innocent man (Christ) was justice?

[Redhawk]

Was Jesus' death necessary? In what way did Jesus' death/sacrifice benefit humanity? Could God not achieve what he intended without Jesus dying?

"The soul that sins shall die." - Ezekiel 18:20

This is God's law. It must be obeyed. We all must obey human laws and we must all obey God's law. The mystery of the death of Jesus Christ can only be answered by looking into the law.

Jesus' death was necessary. Since God is not willing that all men should die for their sins, He died instead of us as punishment for sin. HIS death was a sacrifice for sin.

In the book of Exodus the pattern of sacrifice that God declares is revealed. Hebrews had been slaves in Egypt for four hundred years. To release them from slavery, God destroyed the nation of Egypt(1). The final plague was death of all first born. To avoid this judgment God said to paint the blood of a lamb on the door posts and lintel of a house. Those that accepted the blood were saved from death. Those that did not apply the blood died.

In what way did Jesus' death benefit humanity? We are forgiven of breaking God's law. Jesus' death paid the penalty of breaking God's law.(2)

Could God achieve what He intended without Jesus' death?

The top post quoted above does not state or imply what God's intent might be, therefore it is not possible to address this question directly. It is poorly worded. The Bible clearly states that sin against God will not be tolerated or excused. The penalty for sin is death. Since blood is the life of a man, God requires blood to be shed as a payment for sin. BUT God is not willing to cast all men into godless eternity and has provided payment for sin in the man Jesus. All those who accept Christ into their lives thus accept the sacrifice HE made upon the cross.

Those that don't - have rejected God's only provision for salvation from judgment and are subject to judgment of death which is upon them.

MY Question would therefore be to ask - Since God demands death for sin, exactly how would forgiveness be arranged without payment of this penalty? All human cultures have laws, the violation of which is a penalty of prison or death. There is no exception and there is no forgiveness in the courts of man. But there IS forgiveness in the court of Heaven because Jesus can be accepted as payment for breaking God's law instead of us.

How would you arrange it? The law is the law. How would you pay for it without Christ's death?

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(1) In a similar fashion, God destroyed the United States for the sin of slavery during our civil war. Slavery is a sin which is punishable by judgment of a nation.

(2) No human court allows for forgiveness. When a human law is broken a man must pay the penalty. There is no forgiveness.

What happens to this story when we realize that the Exodus story as told in the Bible didn't happen?

Don't your words become empty? You might as well be referring to Humpty Dumpty falling off a wall, another story that cannot be shown to be true, nor realistic.

Right back at you....what if you find that your assertions are false? What if you learn that in fact the Exodus story DID happen just as it was written?

Be careful here Humpty, you are dangerously close to falling off your own fence. You can't sit there forever, you know.

There is conclusive archeological proof that the Exodus story, especially the part where Pharaoh's army was drowned in the sea during pursuit of Moses' people. Recent discoveries at the bottom of the sea east of Egypt include the metallic parts of ancient Egyptian chariots, soldiers' weapons, metallic buckles for tackle of various types, spear heads and all the accoutrements of war. The archeological evidence shows that an entire Egyptian army was drowned suddenly in the sea. BTW, no evidence of ships or boats was found. The army walked into the sea and drowned. There is no explanation for this other than that the Exodus testimony is true.

One can continue to refuse to believe evidence and refuse to consider the implications of it, but in the end one will be forced to stand before God and answer for it.

Repent now while salvation is possible.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Justin108]

"The soul that sins shall die." - Ezekiel 18:20

This is God's law. It must be obeyed.

Jesus dying for our sins does not obey Ezekiel 18:20

"The soul that sins shall die." - Ezekiel 18:20

Was Jesus' soul the soul that sins? No. So how does Jesus' death obey Ezekiel 18:20?

Jesus' death was necessary. Since God is not willing that all men should die for their sins...

If God was not willing to let all men die for their sins, why did he make it his law in the first place?

He died instead of us as punishment for sin

Why was this necessary? Why not simply forgive us without dying in our place?

HIS death was a sacrifice for sin.

A sacrifice to who?

In what way did Jesus' death benefit humanity? We are forgiven of breaking God's law. Jesus' death paid the penalty of breaking God's law.(2)

No it didn't. The penalty was that "The soul that sins shall die". Jesus was not the soul that sinned, ergo the penalty remains unpaid.

The Bible clearly states that sin against God will not be tolerated or excused. The penalty for sin is death.

Yes. The death of "the soul that sins"

Since blood is the life of a man, God requires blood to be shed as a payment for sin.

God is omnipotent. He requires nothing

BUT God is not willing to cast all men into godless eternity

Then why did he make that law in the first place?

All human cultures have laws, the violation of which is a penalty of prison or death. There is no exception and there is no forgiveness in the courts of man.

If a man was convicted of multiple rapes and murders and was sentenced to death, but then his mother shows up to court and says "I love my son. Set him free and kill me instead", would a court allow this? Would you think it just if this woman gets killed in his place while he goes free?

But there IS forgiveness in the court of Heaven because Jesus can be accepted as payment for breaking God's law instead of us.

I can forgive people without demanding they pay me first. I have that ability. Why doesn't God? How is it I am capable of doing something that God cannot?

How would you arrange it? The law is the law. How would you pay for it without Christ's death?

Christ's death isn't paying for it. Ezekiel specifically demands "the soul that sinned" to die, not just "whoever is willing". Jesus does not meet the requirements to pay this penalty and so the penalty remains unpaid.

(1) In a similar fashion, God destroyed the United States for the sin of slavery during our civil war. Slavery is a sin which is punishable by judgment of a nation.

Are you forgetting the fact that the Bible openly condones slavery?

(2) No human court allows for forgiveness. When a human law is broken a man must pay the penalty.

What court would allow an innocent man to take up the penalty of a guilty man? If I went to court and said "my brother is a rapist, but take me to prison instead and set him free", what court would allow this?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 56 by Redhawk]

Right back at you....what if you find that your assertions are false? What if you learn that in fact the Exodus story DID happen just as it was written?

If you are implying we would have some sort of emotional existential crisis...probably not.
I grew up loving and respecting my father. One day, I discovered he had done some pretty nasty things. I came to terms with it more or less immediately.

Indeed, now that I think about it - I have never ONCE heard from someone that if they found the Bible to be true, they'd go around raping and murdering, that it would be a problem for them.
No...in fact, the opposite is true. I've heard from lots of people that if they found the Bible to be untrue, for God to not be real, then they would go around raping and murdering.

There is conclusive archeological proof that the Exodus story, especially the part where Pharaoh's army was drowned in the sea during pursuit of Moses' people. Recent discoveries at the bottom of the sea east of Egypt include the metallic parts of ancient Egyptian chariots, soldiers' weapons, metallic buckles for tackle of various types, spear heads and all the accoutrements of war.

I notice that in this post, you conveniently do NOT link us to anywhere this evidence is mentioned. What I see while I'm typing this comment is a user with the handle of Redhawk saying that at the bottom of the sea east of Egypt there is apparently artifacts of an Egyptian army. I don't see links, photos, articles, anything at all.
I hereby make a prediction - I can't recall the feller's name at the moment, but I'm willing to bet you heard some guy who claimed to have found a wheel at the bottom of the sea, and this same guy also apparently found Noah's Ark. That over time, what you remember this guy as claiming to have found transformed into lots of chariots, weapons, belt buckles etc
I'm going to predict that if you do indeed turn up links and articles for us to peruse - they won't say what you claim them to say.

There is no explanation for this other than that the Exodus testimony is true.

No. There is NEVER only the ONE explanation for pretty much anything. It could be that there indeed is a whole lot of metallic weapons at the bottom of the sea, only for the real reason they are there to have nothing at all to do with Exodus.

One can continue to refuse to believe evidence and refuse to consider the implications of it,

Says the person who claimed that human court systems do not allow for forgiveness and doubled down on that claim when I pointed out that US presidents and state governors can issue pardons.

Repent now while salvation is possible.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Keep up with this not subtle at all admission of preaching and I wouldn't be surprised if you heard from the mods.

As a serious question though
What do I have to repent for?
Do not ask me back implying that I consider myself sinless - if you are telling people to repent of something, you had better darn well know what specifically they have to repent FOR.

As another question for you Redhawk
Let's say you prove beyond a doubt that there is a whole lot of weapons at the bottom of the sea.
Does that mean that stories filled with what are essentially magic are now to be taken as true?
We found the city of Troy (or one of the cities) a while back. In history classes though, NO-ONE teaches that Paris of Troy for real officiated over a beauty contest starring three real goddesses.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 44 by Clownboat]

I ask you to use your own mind for a moment. Forget your church training. Don't you find it illogical that a god that can create the universe with words has these limitations you put on your god concept?

"He can create universes with words, but man's wicked ways are able to block the patch to him".//

Where do the wicked words come from?

What wicked words? These wicked words are just claims made by Christian churches as far as I know. They are not real as best that I can tell.

Why would a man full of hatred and murder and theft and abuse want to go to heaven when its amospheres of God's Love and Lightwould choke him?

Isn't heaven suppose to be great? Why would a hateful murderer not want to be in a great place? He probably would, because... it is great.

Swedenborg had experienced those who in the world of spirits longed for heaven and when admitted cried to escape.
We only end up where our heart already is.

I'm sorry, but why should I care?

[Monta]

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