Jesus could not have been fully human?

[postroad]

Paul makes this claim that Jesus preexisted time. There are claims that he did not have a human father. How could he be fully human as some Christians claim.

2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Luke 3:23New International Version (NIV)

23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,

the son of Heli,


John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Hebrews 1:2-4New International Version (NIV)

2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

John 1:1
[ The Word Became Flesh ] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If Jesus is the exact representation of God's being and the cause and sustainer of creation,how can he not be divine?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 59 by Checkpoint]



"The Word became what it was not, flesh.

Paul, using the terms "form of God" and "equality with God", then says that was "emptied" or laid aside, and not clung onto, to become or be found in, the "form of man"."

Sorry don't folow that could you rephrase it.

With difficulty, perhaps.

I was simply using the terms Paul used, putting them together to illustrate that separation did occur between the divine and human when the Word became flesh, according to Philippians 2.

[William]

When it comes to contradictions and the ensuring looped arguments (as is evident in this thread - and many others) I employ the rule of "If it contradicts what Jesus is proported to have said, put it aside"

That way at least, I have some foundation to work from.

If one continues to think of the bible as 'the word of god' rather than Jesus, then one will continue to be stuck with the hopeless task of 'explaining' contradiction so that it is not contradiction any longer.

This of course has proved to be the problem - the stumbling block - the reason a kingdom is divided and the curse of Christendom.

In that, it works against GOD - in opposition to GOD.

See?

If Jesus said one thing and Paul contradicts that, then rather than try and dovetail Paul with Jesus, reject Paul in favor of Jesus.

Work WITH GOD.

That is how I see the solution to contradiction.

[Link]

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 59 by Checkpoint]



"The Word became what it was not, flesh.

Paul, using the terms "form of God" and "equality with God", then says that was "emptied" or laid aside, and not clung onto, to become or be found in, the "form of man"."

Sorry don't folow that could you rephrase it.

Many versions do not say that Jesus had "equality with God." In fact, those many versions say that Jesus wouldn't even consider being equal to God.

NAB
NASB
NIV
21st Century N.T.
REB
Moffatt

etc.

[onewithhim]

When it comes to contradictions and the ensuring looped arguments (as is evident in this thread - and many others) I employ the rule of "If it contradicts what Jesus is proported to have said, put it aside"

That way at least, I have some foundation to work from.

If one continues to think of the bible as 'the word of god' rather than Jesus, then one will continue to be stuck with the hopeless task of 'explaining' contradiction so that it is not contradiction any longer.

This of course has proved to be the problem - the stumbling block - the reason a kingdom is divided and the curse of Christendom.

In that, it works against GOD - in opposition to GOD.

See?

If Jesus said one thing and Paul contradicts that, then rather than try and dovetail Paul with Jesus, reject Paul in favor of Jesus.

Work WITH GOD.

That is how I see the solution to contradiction.

[Link]

I agree.....if it contradicts Jesus, reject it.

Jesus said, "I can't do anything on my own, but only what I learn from the Father, and only through what power and authority He GIVES me." (John 5:19; Matthew 28:18)

Therefore, anything else is spurious, such as the horrendous rendering of John 8:58 and even John 1:1. To check the original languages would be helpful. Otherwise, a lot of research is indicated....and reading various Bible scholars, such as BeDuhn, and his excellent book Truth in Translation.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 59 by Checkpoint]



"The Word became what it was not, flesh.

Paul, using the terms "form of God" and "equality with God", then says that was "emptied" or laid aside, and not clung onto, to become or be found in, the "form of man"."

Sorry don't folow that could you rephrase it.

With difficulty, perhaps.

I was simply using the terms Paul used, putting them together to illustrate that separation did occur between the divine and human when the Word became flesh, according to Philippians 2.

Thanks*
Emptied, laid aside, not clung onto, is not seperation.
Talking to a child you do not stop being car salesman, you only put it aside.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 62 by William]

Are you putting aside that the Bible is the single unified word of God?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 59 by Checkpoint]



"The Word became what it was not, flesh.

Paul, using the terms "form of God" and "equality with God", then says that was "emptied" or laid aside, and not clung onto, to become or be found in, the "form of man"."

Sorry don't folow that could you rephrase it.

With difficulty, perhaps.

I was simply using the terms Paul used, putting them together to illustrate that separation did occur between the divine and human when the Word became flesh, according to Philippians 2.

Thanks*
Emptied, laid aside, not clung onto, is not seperation.
Talking to a child you do not stop being car salesman, you only put it aside.

What is the difference between "put it aside" and "laid aside"?

Your analogy doesn't fit.

"The Logos became flesh", something different and new, what hadn't been before.

[dio9]

Christian is more than just believing!
What is the point for us if we say Jesus is God. Saying that puts him out of our reach. Since we are creatures we can never be the creator, I say Jesus sent by God to show us it is possible to be the kind of human being he was ? That's right we can't be the Messiah 'cause he already is that special person but we can be like him in spirit and mind. Jesus is nothing more than a restored human being. Restored through lineage and the history of salvation his ancestors endured. Jesus is the fruit of 6 thousand years of salvation history.
What is the point in saying he is God? a dumb excuse? "ya Jesus could be a good human being because he was God" . I don't think so , we need to claim Jesus as one of us so we can be one with him and him with God and God with us. This is what Emmanuel means. Jesus didn't come into this world from heaven, he came from the world and went to heaven. The best way to worship Jesus is to be like him , it takes some discipline but is possible. Jesus knew in his bones God is real, he had complete faith and put his complete trust in God. We can do that too because Jesus did.
Saying Jesus is God is a cop out , for not completely trusting God as Jesus did. Jesus was one with God and we can be one with God too. We shouldn't be worshiping Jesus we should be him fulfilling his mission on earth.
Paul though less that divine himself , to his credit, acted in Jesus' name as if Christ was acting in and through him. Christ in him , Christ in you. Jesus died but we all may be Christ. Isn't that what Christian means? Really really!

Just say'n Dio

[Wootah]

Christian is more than just believing!
What is the point for us if we say Jesus is God. Saying that puts him out of our reach. Since we are creatures we can never be the creator, I say Jesus sent by God to show us it is possible to be the kind of human being he was ? That's right we can't be the Messiah 'cause he already is that special person but we can be like him in spirit and mind. Jesus is nothing more than a restored human being. Restored through lineage and the history of salvation his ancestors endured. Jesus is the fruit of 6 thousand years of salvation history.
What is the point in saying he is God? a dumb excuse? "ya Jesus could be a good human being because he was God" . I don't think so , we need to claim Jesus as one of us so we can be one with him and him with God and God with us. This is what Emmanuel means. Jesus didn't come into this world from heaven, he came from the world and went to heaven. The best way to worship Jesus is to be like him , it takes some discipline but is possible. Jesus knew in his bones God is real, he had complete faith and put his complete trust in God. We can do that too because Jesus did.
Saying Jesus is God is a cop out , for not completely trusting God as Jesus did. Jesus was one with God and we can be one with God too. We shouldn't be worshiping Jesus we should be him fulfilling his mission on earth.
Paul though less that divine himself , to his credit, acted in Jesus' name as if Christ was acting in and through him. Christ in him , Christ in you. Jesus died but we all may be Christ. Isn't that what Christian means? Really really!

Just say'n Dio

The problem is that if Jesus isn't God then, day in and day out, a lot of religions are focussing on 'not God' and that is idol worship.

You wrote, "The best way to worship Jesus is to be like him" but if it is only right to worship God then worshipping a man is wrong.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 59 by Checkpoint]



"The Word became what it was not, flesh.

Paul, using the terms "form of God" and "equality with God", then says that was "emptied" or laid aside, and not clung onto, to become or be found in, the "form of man"."

Sorry don't folow that could you rephrase it.

With difficulty, perhaps.

I was simply using the terms Paul used, putting them together to illustrate that separation did occur between the divine and human when the Word became flesh, according to Philippians 2.

Thanks*
Emptied, laid aside, not clung onto, is not seperation.
Talking to a child you do not stop being car salesman, you only put it aside.

What is the difference between "put it aside" and "laid aside"?

Your analogy doesn't fit.

"The Logos became flesh", something different and new, what hadn't been before.

The problem I find with yr posts is that you give it shrthand and i have to guess where yu are at.
You used the terms put aside and laid aside, right?
Yes i know about Logos too.