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Argue for and against Christianity

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Youkilledkenny
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Dislike

Post #1

Post by Youkilledkenny »

There is a lot of distaste for Christianity throughout history (and will always be most likely). But why?
For those who aren't Christian, why do you dislike (shun/hate/ignore/etc.) Christianity?
Is it because of the belief system itself (punishing people who refuse to worship such a being, for example) or because of the Christians themselves (who they act/what they say/do, etc.)?
Or is there another reason(s)?
Please explain AND indicate what it would take to change your mind.

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Re: Dislike

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Willum wrote: Well, how can JW, as a good Christian, not believe what the Bible says?
I do believe what the bible says, however and I know for a fact that the words "the sun revolves around the earth" (those precise words, ie, those exact words in bold, in that order as I typed them out there between the quotations marks) are not in the bible.

JW


I have written previously on this topic (see link below)


Did the sun stand still for Joshua (scroll to bottom of the post)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 418#810418
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Dislike

Post #12

Post by Willum »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

And yet you won't let go of it:
It is only one example where the church taught and executed people for believing things that weren't true.

One historic, well acknowledged example.
I just didn't want to get wrapped around modern contestable problems.

Deliberate teaching of ignorance is the problem, killing people for not believing, back in the day, is just one well known example.

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Re: Dislike

Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Willum wrote: [Replying to JehovahsWitness]

And yet you won't let go of it:
It is only one example where the church taught and executed people for believing things that weren't true.

One historic, well acknowledged example.
I just didn't want to get wrapped around modern contestable problems.

Deliberate teaching of ignorance is the problem, killing people for not believing, back in the day, is just one well known example.

How is this a response to my point about what the bible does and does not say? You implied that as one of Jehovah's Witnesses I would not be believing the bible because we do not believe the sun goes around the earth, and when I responded that the bible doesn't actually contain those words you respond that other NON-WITNESSES have had alternative interpretations over the years.

That's like confronting the postman because you neighbor slept with your wife. If you have a problem with previous [Catholic] Church teaching I may I suggest you find a Catholic.

JW
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Dislike

Post #14

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

Youkilledkenny wrote: There is a lot of distaste for Christianity throughout history (and will always be most likely). But why?
For those who aren't Christian, why do you dislike (shun/hate/ignore/etc.) Christianity?
Is it because of the belief system itself (punishing people who refuse to worship such a being, for example) or because of the Christians themselves (who they act/what they say/do, etc.)?
Or is there another reason(s)?
Please explain AND indicate what it would take to change your mind.
Perhaps some of the historical "distaste" for Christianity might be laid at the door of the Catholic church which tended to be very intolerant of any dissention or disagreement. Not merely instigating crusades against other religions, but crusades against dissenting Christian groups. The Albigensians are one example:

Wikipedia
Albigensians
The Albigensian Crusade or Cathar Crusade (1209–1229) was a 20-year military campaign initiated by Pope Innocent III to eliminate Catharism in Languedoc, in the south of France

Massacre at Béziers
The crusaders captured the small village of Servian and then headed for Béziers, arriving on 21 July 1209. Under the command of the papal legate, Arnaud-Amaury,[25] they started to besiege the city, calling on the Catholics within to come out, and demanding that the Cathars surrender.[26] Both groups refused. The city fell the following day when an abortive sortie was pursued back through the open gates.[27] The entire population was slaughtered and the city burned to the ground. Contemporary sources give estimates of the number of dead ranging between 15,000 and 20,000. The latter figure appears in Arnaud-Amaury's report to the pope.[28] The news of the disaster quickly spread and afterwards many settlements surrendered without a fight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade


Wikipedia
Further information: Massacre at Béziers
Amalric's own version of the siege, described in his letter to Pope Innocent III in August 1209, states:
While discussions were still going on with the barons about the release of those in the city who were deemed to be Catholics, the servants and other persons of low rank and unarmed attacked the city without waiting for orders from their leaders. To our amazement, crying "to arms, to arms!", within the space of two or three hours they crossed the ditches and the walls and Béziers was taken. Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caedite_e ... _sunt_eius.

And then there was the crusade against the Waldensians.

Little children were torn from the arms of their mothers, clasped by their tiny feet, and their heads dashed against the rocks; or were held between two soldiers and their quivering limbs torn up by main force. Their mangled bodies were then thrown on the highways or fields, to be devoured by beasts. The sick and the aged were burned alive in their dwellings. Some had their hands and arms and legs lopped off, and fire applied to the severed parts to staunch the bleeding and prolong their suffering. Some were flayed alive, some were roasted alive, some disemboweled; or tied to trees in their own orchards, and their hearts cut out. Some were horribly mutilated, and of others the brains were boiled and eaten by these cannibals. Some were fastened down into the furrows of their own fields, and ploughed into the soil as men plough manure into it. Others were buried alive. Fathers were marched to death with the heads of their sons suspended round their necks. Parents were compelled to look on while their children were first outraged [raped], then massacred, before being themselves permitted to die.

The result of a long term and ongoing attempt by the church to eliminate all dissent.

Wikipedia
Inquisition
The Inquisition was a group of institutions within the government system of the Catholic Church whose aim was to combat heresy. It started in 12th-century France to combat religious sectarianism, in particular the Cathars and the Waldensians. Other groups investigated later included the Spiritual Franciscans, the Hussites (followers of Jan Hus) and Beguines.

Spanish Inquisition
Portugal and Spain in the late Middle Ages consisted largely of multicultural territories of Muslim and Jewish influence, reconquered from Islamic control, and the new Christian authorities could not assume that all their subjects would suddenly become and remain orthodox Roman Catholics. So the Inquisition in Iberia, in the lands of the Reconquista counties and kingdoms like Leon, Castile and Aragon, had a special socio-political basis as well as more fundamental religious motives.

In some parts of Spain towards the end of the 14th century, there was a wave of violent anti-Judaism, encouraged by the preaching of Ferrand Martinez, Archdeacon of Ecija. In the pogroms of June 1391 in Seville, hundreds of Jews were killed, and the synagogue was completely destroyed. The number of people killed was also high in other cities, such as Córdoba, Valencia and Barcelona.

One of the consequences of these pogroms was the mass conversion of thousands of surviving Jews. Forced baptism was contrary to the law of the Catholic Church, and theoretically anybody who had been forcibly baptized could legally return to Judaism. However, this was very narrowly interpreted. Legal definitions of the time theoretically acknowledged that a forced baptism was not a valid sacrament, but confined this to cases where it was literally administered by physical force. A person who had consented to baptism under threat of death or serious injury was still regarded as a voluntary convert, and accordingly forbidden to revert to Judaism.[37] After the public violence, many of the converted "felt it safer to remain in their new religion."[38] Thus, after 1391, a new social group appeared and were referred to as conversos or New Christians.

King Ferdinand II of Aragon and Queen Isabella I of Castile established the Spanish Inquisition in 1478. In contrast to the previous inquisitions, it operated completely under royal Christian authority, though staffed by clergy and orders, and independently of the Holy See. It operated in Spain and in all Spanish colonies and territories, which included the Canary Islands, the Spanish Netherlands, the Kingdom of Naples, and all Spanish possessions in North, Central, and South America. It primarily targeted forced converts from Islam (Moriscos, Conversos and secret Moors) and from Judaism (Conversos, Crypto-Jews and Marranos) — both groups still resided in Spain after the end of the Islamic control of Spain — who came under suspicion of either continuing to adhere to their old religion or of having fallen back into it.

In 1492 all Jews who had not converted were expelled from Spain; those who converted became subject to the Inquisition. (Jews were not heretics, but "Catholics" who practised the Jewish faith were regarded as heretics.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

And of course there were the witchcraft trials, during which 50,000 and perhaps as many as 100,000 women and girls were accused of being witches and executed in various often grizzly ways.

Now compare actions taken historically, with stated church goals.

JESUIT Extreme Oath of Induction
as recorded in the Journals of the 62D Congress, 3d Session of the U.S.
(House Calendar No. 397. Report No. 1523)
Congressional Record---House, 15 Feb. 1913, pp3215-3216


I_______________ , now in the presence of Almighty God, the blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles, St. Peter and St. Paul, and all the saints, sacred host of Heaven, and to you, my Ghostly Father, the superior general of the Society of Jesus, founded by St. Ignatius Loyoly, in the pontification of Paul the III, and continued to the present, do by the womb of the Virgin, the matrix of God, and the rod of Jesus Christ, declare and swear that His Holiness, the Pope, is Christ's vice regent and is the true and only head of the Catholic or Universal Church throughout the earth; and that by the virtue of the keys of binding and loosing given His Holiness by my Saviour, Jesus Christ, he hath power to depose heretical kings, princes, States, Commonwealths, and Governments and they may be safely destroyed. Therefore to the utmost of my power I will defend this doctrine and His Holiness's right and custom against all usurpers of the heretical or Protestant authority whatever, especially the Lutheran Church of Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway, and the now pretended authority and Church's of England and Scotland, and the branches of same now established in Ireland and on the continent of America and elsewhere and all adherents in regard that they may be usurped and heretical, opposing the sacred Mother Church of Rome. I do now denounce and disown any allegiance as due to any heretical king, prince or State, named Protestant or Liberal, or obedience to any of their laws, magistrates or officers. I do further declare that the doctrine of the Churches of England and Scotland of the Calvinists, Huguenots, and others of the name of Protestants or Masons to be damnable, and they themselves to be damned who will not forsake the same. I do further declare that I will help, assist, and advise all or any of His Holiness's agents, in any place where I should be, in Switzerland, Germany, Holland, Ireland or America, or in any other kingdom or territory I shall come to, and do my utmost to extirpate the heretical Protestant or Masonic doctrines and to destroy all their pretended powers, legal or otherwise. I do further promise and declare that, notwithstanding I am dispensed with to assume any religion heretical for the propagation of the Mother Church's interest; to keep secret and private all her agents counsels from time to time, as they intrust me, and not divulge, directly or indirectly, by word, writing or circumstances whatever, but to execute all that should be proposed, given in charge, or discovered unto me by you, my Ghostly Father, or any of this sacred order. I do further promise and declare that I will have no opinion or will of my own or any mental reservation whatever, even as a corpse or cadaver (perinde ac cadaver), but will unhesitatingly obey each and every command that I may receive from my superiors in the militia of the Pope and of Jesus Christ. That I will go to any part of the world whithersoever I may be sent, to the frozen regions north, jungles of India, to the centers of civilization of Europe, or to the wild haunts of the barbarous savages of America without murmuring or repining, and will be submissive in all things whatsoever is communicated to me. I do further promise and declare that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons, as I am directed to do, to extirpate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition, and that will hang, burn, waste, boil, flay, strangle, and bury alive these infamous heretics; rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women, and crush their infant's heads against the walls in order to annihilate their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly I will secretly use the poisonous cup, the strangulation cord, the steel of the poniard, or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity or authority of the persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agents of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Father of the Society of Jesus. In confirmation of which I hereby dedicate my life, soul, and all corporal powers, and with the dagger which I now receive I will subscribe my name written in my blood in testimony thereof; and should I prove false or weaken in my determination may my brethren and fellow soldiers of the militia of the Pope cut off my hands and feet and my throat from ear to ear, my belly opened and sulphur burned therein with all the punishment that can be inflicted upon me on earth and my soul shall be tortured by demons in eternal hell forever. That I will in voting always vote for a Knight of Columbus in preference to a Protestant, especially a Mason, and that I will leave my party so to do; that if two Catholics are on the ticket I will satisfy myself which is the better supporter of Mother Church and vote accordingly. That I will not deal with or employ a Protestant if in my power to deal with or employ a Catholic. That I will place Catholic girls in Protestant families that a weekly report may be made of the inner movements of the heretics. That I will provide myself with arms and ammunition that I may be in readiness when the word is passed, or I am commanded to defend the church either as an individual or with the militia of the Pope. All of which I,_______________, do swear by the blessed Trinity and blessed sacrament which I am now to receive to perform and on part to keep this my oath. In testimony hereof, I take this most holy and blessed sacrament of the Eucharist and witness the same further with my name written with the point of this dagger dipped in my own blood and seal in the face of this holy sacrament.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/ha ... uction.htm

Next consider the acts of total genocide found in Numbers 31:15-18, Joshua 6:20-21, Joshua 11:19-2, Ezekiel 9:4-7 in the OT which has served as justification for mass murder of the most cruel kind in the name of religion.

So when we consider the entire historical picture we can see there were plenty of reasons for "ill will" against Christianity, or at least against those in a position to enforce their will on those who disagreed with them, to have been generated over the centuries.

What would cause me to change my mind about Christianity, or religion in general? Nothing I can think of.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Re: Dislike

Post #15

Post by Willum »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Because, we weren't talking about your point, we were talking about the point I made initially. Before you muddied the waters.

It's about ignorance, more than it is about people being killed for the Sun going around the Earth. One would think you'd a agree:
The church killing people for its false beliefs was wrong in Galileo days, and thus perpetrating a false reality was wrong.

Now I belief it is still wrong with it latest retreat, you believe its new reality is right.
Right?

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Re: Dislike

Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Willum wrote: [Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Because, we weren't talking about your point, we were talking about the point I made initially. Before you muddied the waters.
Willum wrote: Well, how can JW, as a good Christian, not believe what the Bible says?
I only make comments in direct response to what has been said before. In this case you made a comment with direct reference to me as an individual, and I responded. If the point you made was irrelevant to the topic, why was it there? If the point was relevant to the overall topic, why are you complaining? Or is it that you expect to make personal comments about a person or group and not receive a response from the individual(s) concerned? In short, if my response muddied the waters, you introduced the mud.

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Re: Dislike

Post #17

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]

Sure, but it wasn't an appropriate response.
All it did was waste everyone's time dragging us down a silly rabbit hole based on you guiding the conversation away from religions' perpetrating falsehoods we have been uncovering through the ages.

Flat Earth, Terracentricism, cleanliness is bad, medicine is from the Devil...

These are the kinds of ignorance which is why I "Dislike."

Now we can go on and on, however, religion has a very poor track-record. I am simply proposing that the trend will continue.

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Re: Dislike

Post #18

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Willum wrote: Sure, but it wasn't an appropriate response.
All it did was waste everyone's time dragging us down a silly rabbit hole ...
I do believe there is a provision here to report inappropriate material, when I see such I use it. All I can add is, I will respond to comments about me or my own as and when I see fit. You and anyone with neither the time or the inclination always has the option of not replying. It you are so inclined, you are free if you so wish, to exercise that option right now.
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Romans 14:8

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Re: Dislike

Post #19

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 14 by Tired of the Nonsense]

ToN, you're absolutely right, this is even more important than preaching and punishing "false truths," like the Sun going around the Earth.

Those spurious truths are simply excuses for the mass-murders, etc., Judeo-Christianity is frequently proud of, and defends. Things going on even today. When the issue of the Palestinian Genocide comes up - how a Nation with no large arms, army, navy or air force, is "at war," with a country armed with all the military might the US can give it, the response is, "then why do they keep attacking?"

Without excuses, such as "this lands belongs to us, because God made a promise," they would still find reason for murder, mass murder and genocide.

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