What is the logic behind Jesus' crucifixion?

[Justin108]

I have been asking this question over and over on this forum and no theist has ever been able to address it. They try, but once I give my rebuttal to their attempts, they eventually stop replying. Hopefully I can get an answer this time.

Note: This topic is specifically for Christians who believe Jesus' death was necessary for us to have our sins forgiven.

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?

[PghPanther]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]

Let's think about this whole thing.......................the stories outlined in the Old and New Testament focus on the need for some kind of sacrifice by a pure and innocent (clean animal) or a once and final sinless perfect human (Christ).

Now at the time all this was written into text we were dealing with a prescientific culture who understood little about the laws and forces of nature.

Note only with just the Judeo/Christian but all cultures during this period of human development literally thought unexplained natural forces were controlled by super humans in the sky, aka Gods.. or even a single God..............as a result they all feared the bad effects of nature and life. So they tried to appease these imaged beings by offering them gifts/sacrifices......

Especially, of blood since they had observer when a person or animal kept bleeding they died............so that was the ultimate sacrifice that could be made.

This is nothing more than behavior and claims by humans who have not a clue about their environment trying to understanding it by imagining it is being controlled by conscious beings like themselves with far greater powers than they and attempting to appease them to change those forces that they feared......

How in the world can we take any claims from ancient prescientific texts as a validation for reality by cultures who had no scientific method to even begin to understand reality is beyond me........

Scape goat sacrifices of blood with any living organism to appease an imagined superpower is nothing more than a relic from primitive superstitious behavior.

But the texts of the Old and New Testament reek of a culture that doesn’t understand the environment and their God actions in that text are the actions of a primitive nomadic dessert culture best effort to try to understand reality before the process of the scientific method was leveraged.

Not only is that theory not interesting or compelling, it's probably just some fanciful imagining. The opposite is probably much more likely. They had a direct grasp of reality and therefore didn't need to explain anything. Notice that they don't explain anything, but seem to intuitively know that washing after coming in contact with blood, corpses, rotting animals, giving birth etc. is a really good way to prevent the spread of disease. They also know that quarantine is beneficial. Science has to see the bacteria and viruses before it can come to the same conclusion. Scientists therefore have to wait a few thousand years to figure out how to keep from getting the common cold. They also end up dying from things like the Black Death while those who have enough sense to wash and stay away from idiots not only survive, but thrive due to the many other instructions given to them by their gods...Better to be a thriving theist than a dead scientist.

There is nothing supernatural about people noticing results from behavior and actions such as you described and then claiming it was revealed to them by a revelation beyond their own observations...........

Check out the cure for lepers in the Bible and you can laugh at that mumbo jumbo as "insight" too.....

[shnarkle]

There is nothing supernatural about people noticing results from behavior and actions such as you described and then claiming it was revealed to them by a revelation beyond their own observations...........

The only thing that is supernatural is their ability to believe that they can carry out the instructions. There is nothing supernatural about anyone ignoring the prosperity of others; that is simple stupidity and far more worthy of ridicule or amusement than the fact that some have enough sense to quarantine lepers. It's no coincidence that those who follow these common sense guidelines tend to be healthier, happier, and quite frequently the subject of scorn for being the cause of the Black Death (because they didn't get sick); responsible for the terrible economy (because they're the one's making loans rather than the one's becoming debt slaves). You're supposed to look at how they handled leprosy and scoff. Some people are able to look beyond that, and see how it actually works. It actually takes the mind of a scientist to look at it with an open mind. The only way it can be understood is to actually do it.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]

The logic is something like this: just as one bad apple can cast all the other apples in doubt (that they too are no good), so one good apple can restore the reputation of the others (that, in fact, they may be good).

That is what Jesus does. In steadfastness to the communal way of self-giving (for the salvation and life of others), through the worst possible death even, Jesus proves his worthiness to rule, and in the process restores the reputation of us all.

He redeems us or, as Paul puts it, justifies us. He justifies our existence and calling to rule the earth.

The only way we can share in this redemption is if we repent and acknowledge Christ as our redeemer. What happens then that redeems us? What metamorphosis occurs that takes us from being a good apple to a bad apple? How does this metamorphosis occur?

No, the redemption is automatic. You misunderstand.

Nothing takes us from being a good apple to a bad apple here. Rather, in finding one good apple in the batch, our faith and hope in the rest is restored. Or at least, we cannot deny that there is potential in the batch.

It does not make us good. What it does is makes it more likely for one to take another apple and give it a try... To give the batch another chance. To not destroy the batch outright (its existence being unjustified).

See? Automatic redemption. Just like the 10 good people in Sodom may have saved that whole batch if they were to be found.

So because there is one good apple, this makes the entire batch more palatable to God? So we just have to be in the same batch.

I still don't see how having one good apple in there is going to make a difference when it comes to God. God could decide to keep all the apples even without the good apple in there. He could also renew each apple if he so desired, simply by his spoken word. Or is it just not possible for God to make a bad apple good by his holy power?

[theophile]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]

So because there is one good apple, this makes the entire batch more palatable to God? So we just have to be in the same batch.

This is simple logic.

The batch = the whole of humankind. Each person is an apple.

Now let's pretend you take one of the apples. You take a bite, and it is rotten. So you spit it out.

This makes you think "are all these apples rotten?"... Thus the reputation of all the apples is marred by just that one...

Now let's pretend you do that a few more times and get the same result. But on your fifth apple (or whatever) you actually get a good one! It is crunchy and tasty and perfectly sweet.

And here we see the logic of the bible: just as one bad apple lowered your perception of the batch, so one good apple raises it, or redeems the batch.

You can't help, after that one good apple, but think there might be something worth preserving in that batch. That the batch itself is worth preserving. (Saved by that one apple.)

There is nothing more to it. This is a logic that holds for apples as much as human beings or anything else for that matter.

I still don't see how having one good apple in there is going to make a difference when it comes to God. God could decide to keep all the apples even without the good apple in there. He could also renew each apple if he so desired, simply by his spoken word. Or is it just not possible for God to make a bad apple good by his holy power?

People need to stop setting up these magical God powers and notions of God. Clearly God does not work this way according to the bible, so let's try to think differently about things. And use even simple logic to figure out what's going on. (It's not that complicated when we think about it.)

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]

So because there is one good apple, this makes the entire batch more palatable to God? So we just have to be in the same batch.

This is simple logic.

The batch = the whole of humankind. Each person is an apple.

Now let's pretend you take one of the apples. You take a bite, and it is rotten. So you spit it out.

This makes you think "are all these apples rotten?"... Thus the reputation of all the apples is marred by just that one...

Now let's pretend you do that a few more times and get the same result. But on your fifth apple (or whatever) you actually get a good one! It is crunchy and tasty and perfectly sweet.

And here we see the logic of the bible: just as one bad apple lowered your perception of the batch, so one good apple raises it, or redeems the batch.

You can't help, after that one good apple, but think there might be something worth preserving in that batch. That the batch itself is worth preserving. (Saved by that one apple.)

There is nothing more to it. This is a logic that holds for apples as much as human beings or anything else for that matter.

Yeah, ok, I see your point, but I don't think that's the way it works. The new system... ie where Jesus was to be put in place of individual animal sacrifices. He was to be the ULTIMATE sacrifice. The lamb of God. How does the apple analogy fit in with the original system?

ie,

In the old testament times we have the bad apples. God is checking out the batch of apples and he isn't finding any good apples at all. But that's ok, because under the Old Testament way of doing things, all the bad apple had to do is present a good apple (a pure and sinless being - an animal say) instead and offer it up to God. So God gets a good apple sacrificed to him so that the bad apple can be cleansed of its badness and be a good apple again.

Of course the problem is that the apple does not remain good. It becomes bad again and then has to offer up another good apple to God so that God will cleanse the apple and make it good again.

Your idea of good and bad apples doesn't work due to the old system. The old system is clearly a situation where a good apple is offered up instead of a bad one. It's not a situation where there is one good apple in the batch which makes the whole batch worth keeping. The bad apples in the batch have to keep giving up good apples to make up for their badness. God then has to purify the bad apple so that it is good again and worthy to be in the batch.

Bringing Jesus in as the ultimate good apple was to take away the need for constant sacrificing of good apples. Just ONE good apple was all that was needed for you to now be cleansed. All you have to do is repent and accept that good apple as having paid the price for your badness once and for all. Then you end up under the grace of the good apple.

Further more, the bad apples can only avoid being rejected if they accept the good apple as part of their batch. We bad apples don't just become accepted automatically. The bible teaches us that we all have to make a decision to accept the good apple into the batch. What about those apples that don't accept the good apple into the batch? They still get rejected.

So what we have is a batch of apples. There's one good one and there are two other groups of bad apples. 1) The group of bad apples that end up saved due to the good apple. ie they get by on the grace of the good apple. 2) the group of bad apples that get burnt - who don't get by on the grace of the good apple.

So we still have rejected apples.

What makes the other bad apples stand out from the bad apples that ultimately get rejected and burnt?

The other problem is that the badness of the apple can't just be overlooked because of the good apple. Any apple that ultimately gets accepted must be free of badness. The bible teaches this. Bad = sin. Sin cannot be around God. It cannot get into Heaven, thus the bad apple cannot get into Heaven as the badness is still there. Somehow the apple has to be cleansed of its badness. Just being part of a batch with a good apple is not going to cut the mustard.

[theophile]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]

Yeah, ok, I see your point, but I don't think that's the way it works. The new system... ie where Jesus was to be put in place of individual animal sacrifices. He was to be the ULTIMATE sacrifice. The lamb of God. How does the apple analogy fit in with the original system?

There are two "saving" actions that need to be clearly distinguished.

Let me distinguish them this way: there is (1) the action that saves by providing for, and there is (2) the action that saves by justifying us, that we deserve to live and hold the position on earth that we do...

(1) We are all creatures of need. We need food, water and air. Our bodies and minds can break. We eventually die. The action that saves us here is, to your point, the "original" sacrifice... The sacrifice of the lamb that gives its body and blood for the life of others. So that others can live.

This is what Jesus above all shows us: what I called in my first post on this thread (post 32) the way of communion, where Jesus gives his body and blood to his disciples - a gift that the Jews and Romans rejected and mocked by crucifying Jesus. The "good / bad apple" metaphor has nothing to do with this...

(2) We are the creatures who were called to rule the earth. We are accountable for the state of things, and for any outcry from the earth's inhabitants... We are, in regards to how we fulfill this position, judged. Whether we deserve to hold it. Whether our rule - and even our very existence on earth - is justified.

Jesus proves through the crucifixion that we are not all that bad. He remains true to communion through the absolute worst, proving his motivations are truly for others (versus himself - his very life being taken away.)

This is how, like a good apple, Jesus justifies us all. He compels any "judge" to give us another look through his example... (Thus saving us by giving us "another chance" so to speak. should that judge have the power to destroy.)

See the difference? Yes, there is a more fundamental / original saving action. But the other action (which is accomplished through the first) has been around for nearly as long. Since the fall... It's not like it's a Jesus only thing. Abraham and Job both passed the same essential test, for example. The world was flooded because humanity was deemed unfit. Same Sodom and Gomorrah (Abraham to God: what if there were ten good people? Would you spare them?...)

This is a deep and critical thread in the bible to understand.

[OnceConvinced]

Ok, then lets just focus on 1) which is kind of what this thread was trying to do. It seems that the good/bad apple analogy is irrelevant.

How does the provision of the lamb save US? How does its body allow us to live? Why can't we be given life without the need for the lamb to be slaughtered?

As far as I can see we can have a good apple in the basket without Jesus having to be a blood sacrifice for us. All Jesus needs to do is live as a human and be the good apple that makes the batch acceptable. No life needs to be given for this.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 95 by OnceConvinced]

The bible teaches this. Bad = sin. Sin cannot be around God.

What about when Adam and Eve were naked, before they ate the forbidden fruit and realised that their nakedness was a sin? What about when Jesus ate meals with sinners?

Another contradiction of Christian theology.

[earl]

justin,
There are two gospels.
One by Jesus and the other by Paul who openly says so at least twice.
Jesus offered the Samaritan woman at the well eternal life Jo.4 as he did the lawyer who directly asked him how to have eternal life Lu.10.25.
Jesus was offering eternal life from the get go.
Paul provides the atonement doctrine ,a sacrifice must occur and it to be the last sacrifice,a reconciliation of man to God depending on variations of it and there after man will have,in a position to receive eternal life.
Both are only for the asking.
Most Christians believe Paul's gospel.
A few others believe Jesus' gospel.
In Jesus and Paul's day sacrificing for a sin was in vogue.

[theophile]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]

Ok, then lets just focus on 1) which is kind of what this thread was trying to do. It seems that the good/bad apple analogy is irrelevant.

No, it's relevant. The OP was about the logic of Jesus' crucifixion. And what its saving or redemptive power is. Answer: apples.

How does the provision of the lamb save US? How does its body allow us to live? Why can't we be given life without the need for the lamb to be slaughtered?

Umm, again, you are a creature of needs. Made of dust. The lamb can provide for your needs (at least some of them). It's a metaphor for any self-giving for the welfare of others. See also the Samaritan giving his time and money to help someone beaten and left for dead. See also Jesus giving his power to lots of others to heal them, feed them, etc.

That is communion. That is the sacrifice of the lamb that saves.

As far as I can see we can have a good apple in the basket without Jesus having to be a blood sacrifice for us. All Jesus needs to do is live as a human and be the good apple that makes the batch acceptable. No life needs to be given for this.

Well clearly you haven't read the book of Job.

The satan found some pretty good reasons to doubt Job, even on the basis of what you say here.