Is forgiveness without a price a virtue?

[Justin108]

Is it a good thing to be able to forgive without any price?

If so, is God imperfect for being unable to forgive sin without Jesus' sacrifice?

[Kenisaw]

Is it a good thing to be able to forgive without any price?

If so, is God imperfect for being unable to forgive sin without Jesus' sacrifice?

I wouldn't know, all the gods I know of don't forgive without any price.

[Justin108]

Why would that scenario even be applicable?

It illustrates that fines are not always about punishment. If it were, then it won't make any sense to punish the parents

He could be sent to a juvenile detention center or something but again that scenario is stupid.

Yes, this would be punishment because he is the one being punished, not his parents. The guilty party should be punished. If the guilty party is not punished then you cannot call it justice

You are literally asking me why don't courts fine children. If thats not obvious...wtf

If you paid attention, you will notice I asked no such thing. I did not ask why children are not fined, I asked how is parents being fined a punishment for children. There is a difference.

Doesn't really matter to me if we use money or not. Money is just the first thing and easiest thing to be understood.

Ok so then you wouldn't mind if we stopped using money as an analogy? Why not compare death sentences to death sentences?

If the price of sinning is death and someone is willing to pay for someone elses with their own life and theyre of sound mind and not forced, then by all means its just.

Ok let's apply your logic to the real world
- the price for murder is death
- Jack kills someone
- Jack's mother, Lucy, loves Jack so she offers to be sentenced to death on his behalf

Would you be ok with Lucy, an innocent woman, being sentenced to death while Jack, a guilty man, is set free? Yes or no?

Money just happened to be the thing thats most similar to the situation because we price things in money.

You know what's more similar to a death sentence than money? Another death sentence! So let's compare death sentences to death sentences, shall we?

[MuffMaYne]

[Replying to post 92 by Justin108]

Again the scenario isnt applicable. They punish the parents simply because we don't punish children, someone has to pay, so they go to the guardians of the child who do have jobs. Trying to use that as comparable to what we are talking about doesn't work. I have to point out why children aren't punished to show that the scenario doesn't work. Me pointing out why is the reason the scenario is faulty.

Its not about whether I'm okay with it unless I'm Jack, the mother, or the judge.

If im Jack then of course I'm not gonna want my mother to pay for my crime.

To be even more specific if Im Jack and Christ is willing to die for me am I willing to allow it? Yes, why?
--------------------------
"I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again."

He was willing to suffer a temporary death so that mines wouldn't have to be permanent.

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And you don't have to ask me permission to do anything. Use any analogy you want, and ill use whatever analogy I want.

[Justin108]

Again the scenario isnt applicable. They punish the parents simply because we don't punish children, someone has to pay, so they go to the guardians of the child who do have jobs.

Of course they punish children. You said it yourself, with juvenile detention. If the sole purpose was punishment, then they would use juvenile detention. But the sole purpose is not punishment, it's compensation.

Its not about whether I'm okay with it unless I'm Jack, the mother, or the judge.

So unless you're one of these three people, you should not have an opinion on the matter?

If im Jack then of course I'm not gonna want my mother to pay for my crime.

Then why are you ok with Christ paying for your crime?

He was willing to suffer a temporary death so that mines wouldn't have to be permanent.

Wait back up... when you said the price of sin is death, is this price a temporary death? Or a permanent death?

And you don't have to ask me permission to do anything. Use any analogy you want, and ill use whatever analogy I want.

I am no asking your permission, I'm asking if we can agree on an analogy.

[Hawkins]

Is it a good thing to be able to forgive without any price?

If so, is God imperfect for being unable to forgive sin without Jesus' sacrifice?

Does it work in your country that criminals can be forgiven and released at a person's will?

There's a final judgment (Judgment Day) that one is sentenced. The legitimacy for him to be forgiven and released is when God is put in his place, or an equivalence with God made a self-sacrifice.

If God can pardon at will without a price, it simultaneously means God is practicing lawlessness. Law is completely meaningless in His realm.

[MuffMaYne]

[Replying to post 94 by Justin108]

In YOUR scenario they aren't punishing the kid so its not applicable. If they were then sure it would be able to be applied here, but since your scenario doesn't go that way the whole thing is useless. I shouldn't have to say that.

If you think you have say in some random person punishment then by all means believe so.

Why ask me why im okay with Christ paying for my punishment when I answered it already. Was one sentence below the one you quoted.

The punishment for sin was just a death. It was permanent because we have no way of resurrecting people, but since Christ does have that power, He could pay the price and come back to life.

Again, you don't have to ask me. If we agree on the analogy then we do, if we dont then we dont. Same as you thinking a childs parents being fined is an analogy for God punishing someone directly for their own sins.

[Justin108]

In YOUR scenario they aren't punishing the kid so its not applicable.

I will repeat my point... these kinds of scenarios happen. Adults are fined when their children break things. This is because fines are not always about punishment. Fines are often (usually) about compensation. But the parent-fine scenario is hardly my whole argument so if you don't like the scenario then disregard it. My main point is in regards to death sentences.

The punishment for sin was just a death. It was permanent because we have no way of resurrecting people, but since Christ does have that power, He could pay the price and come back to life.

So Christ has the power to resurrect people, which means that he could have let us all pay our own death-price, and then bring us back. I mean that's kind of what happens anyway, isn't it? We all still die a physical death before then being resurrected, right? So what was the point of Jesus' sacrifice when we still pay a (temporary) death? What was the point of Jesus' sacrifice when he could have just brought us back from the dead after our death was paid?

[Justin108]

Does it work in your country that criminals can be forgiven and released at a person's will?

No, but it also doesn't work that way in my country that someone else (Jesus) can take the punishment on behalf of the guilty party (sinners)

The legitimacy for him to be forgiven and released is when God is put in his place, or an equivalence with God made a self-sacrifice.

Yeah I've never heard of any legal system that works this way. If an innocent man is sentenced to death on behalf of a guilty man, then justice was not served

[MuffMaYne]

[Replying to post 97 by Justin108]

No one is arguing that compensation is always punishment, but you seem to be arguing compensation is never a punishment, which is insane.

It doesn't matter if that scenario happens, its not a proper analogy for God punishing someone, so its useless.

As for why Christ needed to die in our place, theres a whole topic on it in this forum. Its fairly active. I'd suggest you head there if you're interested in that.

[Justin108]

As for why Christ needed to die in our place, theres a whole topic on it in this forum. Its fairly active. I'd suggest you head there if you're interested in that.

Care to link me to it so we can continue the discussion there?