Gospel of John

[polonius]

There are disputes about who really authored the Gospels. One of the most interesting is the Gospel of John.

Is there evidence against his authorship? If so, what evidence?

[oldbadger]

Yes I do need you to quote the laws that apply to the above for me.

JW

I would help any person to know the 613 laws better.
But you can do the homework, because it helps memory if a person actually takes part in the learning process.

All Jewish Males must give half-shekel to the Temple (the sanctuary) each year.(Ex. 30:13) The coinage must be consistent in weight and purity and for that reason all other currencies are not permitted. Only the Tyrian half shekel is valid in Gods Temple.

Jesus threw over tables and scattered coins and sacrificial doves.
Nobody has the right to destroy anything in God's Temple. (Deut. 12:2-4) The law is fixed for such offenders. (Deut. 19:13)

[oldbadger]

Now all that is lacking is your providing a reference to the actual law that authorises money-changers. There are only 613, find and quote the one that mentions money changers.

JW

...already done, but there is more....

The law required that there be provision of sacrifices for the people in trhe Temple.

(Ex. 12:8) (Num. 28:11) (Lev. 23:36) (Deut. 12:13) (Deut. 12:14)

The Law required that people reverred and gave respect to, for and in the Temple.
(Lev. 19:30)

The Remission of Sins (and confessions) could only be made in the Temple.
(Num.5:6-7)

[oldbadger]

Okay he had a cord whip in his possession. He drove the merchants out. Now, like I said, all you have to do is prove he assaulted anyone.

.... already replied, but there is more....

Of course, G-John's account of the Temple demonstration and picket ....
Oh! ..... I forgot about the picketing...... Obviously the laws that layed down for the provision of sacrifices gave 'rights' to those who sold them, and of course rights to those who exchanged money. To Picket the Temple Courts, thus stopping all traffic was an obvious violation of laws already shown to you.

But G-John'#s account is a clear deception, in that he placed the incident into the early part of Jesus;'s ministry, probably because he did not want readers top associate Jesus's arrest, trial, conviction and sentence with CRIMES!

Of course, any person might link Jesus's actions as a great annoyance and damage to the Temple authorities, and not any great problem for Pilate, who may well have been amused or even pleased with Jesus and his actions. Piloty probably did not want Jesus 'done away with'.

G-John makes devious deception in that he reduces the other Jesus, Jesus Son of the Father, by making him a robber rather than a rioter and murderer. Christians would later remove Barabba's first name from the accounts, but the fact that a Jesus Son of the Father committed riot and murder in Jerusalem with others is an important consideration. The question begs, 'which Jesus was punished, and which released?'

Jesus was either taken down alive, after Pilot ordered same, and survived (there is an historical precedent) for a convict to be taken down and survive)..........

Or Jesus was never crucified, the other Jesus being whipped and thorned bloody to hide his features.

This is a debate, and any person may consider and reason onj these points and proposals.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 158 by JehovahsWitness]

1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved.

There is nothing mentioned about she going with people. So it is assumed.

Does the text say she did NOT go with anyone else? Is an assumption a fact?

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes I do need you to quote the laws that apply to the above for me.

JW

I would help any person to know the 613 laws better.
But you can do the homework, because it helps memory if a person actually takes part in the learning process.

All Jewish Males must give half-shekel to the Temple (the sanctuary) each year.(Ex. 30:13)

I see no mention of the word "money changers" here, nor permission for them to be in the temple. Perhaps I missed it, could you put those two words in bold or in color for me so I can see you have indeed provided a law with regard to the money changers lawfully being in the Temple.

Thanks,

[JehovahsWitness]

I would help any person to know the 613 laws better.
But you can do the homework, because it helps memory if a person actually takes part in the learning process.

Thank you, I do appreciate your efforts.

Now all that is lacking is your providing a reference to the actual law that authorises money-changers. There are only 613, find and quote the one that mentions money changers.

JW

...already done, but there is more....

The law required that there be provision of sacrifices for the people in trhe Temple.

(Ex. 12:8) (Num. 28:11) (Lev. 23:36) (Deut. 12:13) (Deut. 12:14)

The Law required that people reverred and gave respect to, for and in the Temple.
(Lev. 19:30)

The Remission of Sins (and confessions) could only be made in the Temple.
(Num.5:6-7)

Not one of those scriptures mentions the words "money changers" or "permission granted to be in the temple", so no my friend, it is not "done" by a long shot.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

G-John:{2:15} And when he had made a scourge of
small cords, he drove them all out of the temple,.............
Okay he had a cord whip in his possession. He drove the merchants out. Now, like I said, all you have to do is prove he assaulted anyone.

He drove them, armed with a whip....... now I can see that for you this is not enough.
But the debate is public for all to see. I have done enough

Enough for someone unreasonable perhaps, but having a whip (or a knife or a gun) is not proof you used it on someone. Jesus was scattering the animals, and livestock usually need some prodding to get moving... there is absolutely not evidence that he used the cord on the people. Feel free to highlight the any part of the verses that say anything to the contrary, otherwise, you have pure assumption, which is only proof you can .... assume.

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus threw over tables and scattered coins and sacrificial doves.
Nobody has the right to destroy anything in God's Temple. (Deut. 12:2-4)

Deuteronomy 12:2-4English Standard Version (ESV)

2 You shall surely destroy all the places where the nations whom you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree. 3 You shall tear down their altars and dash in pieces their pillars and burn their Asherim with fire. You shall chop down the carved images of their gods and destroy their name out of that place. 4 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way.

#1 Jesus didn't destroy anything except the money makings chance of making a profit that day

#2 Some of the tables may well have been damaged but they were no doubt reparable because as I said, Jesus didn't take an axe to them or set them on fire.

#3 If something was in the temple that had no right to be there, then they could quite legitmately be destroyed. Which is why God blessed Hezekiah, (repentent) Menasseh and Josiah who destroyed the false idols that had been erected in the temple courtyard

#4 The scripture presented does not support your arguement, but it does support point #3 of mine.


JW

[Tetragrammaton]

[Replying to post 163 by oldbadger]

Tell me more about what you think happened with Barabbas.
I am honestly interested.

Small fact, Jesus could not (even with a gang of 20 people) kick out all the merchants and keep them out.

2 main reasons:

1
There were Roman soldiers there to prevent any theft/fights although the real reason was to keep an eye on suspicious rebellious activities.

It was King Herod's temple, and the gentile court was well guarded with roman soldiers to effectively subdue any Jewish rebellion from capturing the temple, since the temple was well fortified.

2
The temple was huge, so huge that it is not possible to keep everybody out even if you have 20 people helping you. (The temple was as big as a 1/5 of the city of Jerusalem, one of the biggest Temples of the roman empire)
http://templemountlocation.com/herodTempleCourts.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Broo ... Tissot.jpg

[oldbadger]

I see no mention of the word "money changers" here, nor permission for them to be in the temple. Perhaps I missed it, could you put those two words in bold or in color for me so I can see you have indeed provided a law with regard to the money changers lawfully being in the Temple.

Thanks,

Ah ha!. Now, since the law required that each male should pay a half-shekel, you are going to have to answer some questions as well!
Did that law define exactly what a half-shekel would be?
I mean, could a man offer a bit of copper with half-shekel writ large upon it?
No! Only a particular half-shekel was acceptable, of a particular weight and purity in silver.

But you would like this writ large in the bible?

That is just the point. Not only was Jesus against the massive money-go-round of Temple fees, Temple expenses, Priest's fees, etc, but he was against the pressures placed up[on poor people to have to go to such expense, plus the heavy charges for any bed or meal whilst there..........

Jesus, like John tB, offered the remission of sins by immersion in water, a cleare breech of the 613, but then the priresthood had ignored the poor for so long.

You want proof that Jesus broke laws, but the Priesthood controlled most Temple fees and the whole 'thing', so to interrupt their money-fest would attract REVENGE!
Pilate actually did not much worry about Jesus had done..... he questioned their wish to have him killed. I don't think that Pilot wanted Jesus dead. Interestingly, Muslims don't think Jesus died. Interestingly, some gospel acxcounts report that Jesus was seen in Galilee, and that would fit with his route out of Israel and on to India (Kashmir) where he was reported to have lived, died and where there is a tomb!

Obviously a Christian can't believe this, but other readers might take note iof it, and wonder about it all. I can do no more, really.