Death on the cross

[Elijah John]

I keep hearing that God's love is demonstrated to us by Jesus crucifixion. Exactly how is this a demonstration of God's love?

How is God's allowing the torture of "Himself" TO Himself a demonstration of His love for us?

Are there better, more loving ways that God demonstrates his love for us?

I can think of a few, but what do y'all think?

[Checkpoint]

I keep hearing that God's love is demonstrated to us by Jesus crucifixion. Exactly how is this a demonstration of God's love?

How is God's allowing the torture of "Himself" TO Himself a demonstration of His love for us?

Are there better, more loving ways that God demonstrates his love for us?

I can think of a few, but what do y'all think?

Your perennial issue, expressed in so many ways and in so many op threads.

Paul has answers, but you reject them as going beyond the Christ of the Synoptics.

I therefore give you Christ's own statement found in Matthew and Mark, no less:

Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45

For even/just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

Note this also...

HELPS Word-studies

Ransom:

Cognate: 3083 lýtron (a neuter noun) – literally, the ransom-money (price) to free a slave. 3083 (lýtron) is used in the NT of the ultimate "liberty-price" – the blood of Christ which purchases (ransoms) believers, freeing them from all slavery (bondage) to sin. 3083 (lýtron) occurs twice in the NT (Mt 10:28; Mk 10:45), both times referring to this purchase (ransom-price) which Christ paid. See 3084 (lytro�).

[Elijah John]

I keep hearing that God's love is demonstrated to us by Jesus crucifixion. Exactly how is this a demonstration of God's love?

How is God's allowing the torture of "Himself" TO Himself a demonstration of His love for us?

Are there better, more loving ways that God demonstrates his love for us?

I can think of a few, but what do y'all think?

Your perennial issue, expressed in so many ways and in so many op threads.

Paul has answers, but you reject them as going beyond the Christ of the Synoptics.

I therefore give you Christ's own statement found in Matthew and Mark, no less:

Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45

For even/just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

Note this also...

HELPS Word-studies

Ransom:

Cognate: 3083 lýtron (a neuter noun) – literally, the ransom-money (price) to free a slave. 3083 (lýtron) is used in the NT of the ultimate "liberty-price" – the blood of Christ which purchases (ransoms) believers, freeing them from all slavery (bondage) to sin. 3083 (lýtron) occurs twice in the NT (Mt 10:28; Mk 10:45), both times referring to this purchase (ransom-price) which Christ paid. See 3084 (lytro�).

You are answering a question here that I did not ask on this thread. Not "was Christ's crucifixion necessary in order for us to be saved"?

But rather, how does that crucifixion demonstrate the love of God, and aren't there better ways for Him to demonstrate that love?

God sacrificing "himself to himself" (torturing) does not strike many seeking people as "love" for humanity, and many of us just don't see it.

Even for Theists, aren't God's promises, protection, Providence and presence better demonstrations of His love? And His direct mercy and guidance?

Less bloody, less cruel, more direct and less convoluted?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 2 by Checkpoint]

You are answering a question here that I did not ask on this thread. Not "was Christ's crucifixion necessary in order for us to be saved"?

But rather, how does that crucifixion demonstrate the love of God, and aren't there better ways for Him to demonstrate that love?

It may seem that way to you, but I chose to answer, naturally, from my perspective, not from yours.

The crucifixion Jesus describes as being "to give his life", as the final act in his first coming, which was "not to be served but to serve".

He then specified its purpose, "as a ransom for many".

That is, as an expression of love for those who need not only a doctor but freedom to live an abundant life, no longer the slave of sin and no longer in fear of death.

There is no better way than that to demonstrate love.

God sacrificing "himself to himself" (torturing) does not strike many seeking people as "love" for humanity, and many of us just don't see it.

I don't see it as 'God sacrificing "himself to himself" either.

Even for Theists, aren't God's promises, protection, Providence and presence better demonstrations of His love? And His direct mercy and guidance?

Less bloody, less cruel, more direct and less convoluted?

I don't think it is our place to grade God on how He expresses His love, but to recognise it and appreciate it..

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 4 by Checkpoint]

OK, let's go with the "ransom" thing. Jesus allowed himself to be tortured and killed as a "ransom". A ransom to whom?

The Romans who excecuted him? What do (or did) most of humanity have to fear from the Romans?

And even if self-sacrifice is a sign of love, how is that a sign of God's love?

It may be a sign of Jesus love, sorry but I'm having trouble seeing how it is a sign of God's love.

[bluethread]

I reject the premise that both of you are accepting, That is that Yeshua giving His life is an exclusive reference to what the RCC calls "The Passion". Now, in some cases, i.e. Paul's comparison of Yeshua to the sacrifices in HaTorah, such references do focus on His death. However, this is not the primary concept that the phrase refers to. The phrase speaks of giving up one's LIFE. Interpreting that as death is romantic imagery, and not in line with the Torah principle of the Sacrificial LIFE and that LIFE extends unto death.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 5 by Elijah John]

OK, let's go with the "ransom" thing.

Yes, let's do just that.

I haven't specifically looked at it before, and so far have found things that clarify and inform.

I'll post a little study this afternoon as I want to "sleep on it" first, before I put the post together.

[Elijah John]

I reject the premise that both of you are accepting, That is that Yeshua giving His life is an exclusive reference to what the RCC calls "The Passion". Now, in some cases, i.e. Paul's comparison of Yeshua to the sacrifices in HaTorah, such references do focus on His death. However, this is not the primary concept that the phrase refers to. The phrase speaks of giving up one's LIFE. Interpreting that as death is romantic imagery, and not in line with the Torah principle of the Sacrificial LIFE and that LIFE extends unto death.

Understood, but how does even that perspective of a sacrificial life by one individual demonstrate God's love for humanity?

It may or may not demonstrate Yahshua's love for humanity, but God's? How?

Aren't His promises, Providential care, His presence, guidance and mercy better indicator's that God loves us, and how that love is manifest?

Why and how is it all wrapped up in John 3.16, as so many preachers proclaim?

[bluethread]

I reject the premise that both of you are accepting, That is that Yeshua giving His life is an exclusive reference to what the RCC calls "The Passion". Now, in some cases, i.e. Paul's comparison of Yeshua to the sacrifices in HaTorah, such references do focus on His death. However, this is not the primary concept that the phrase refers to. The phrase speaks of giving up one's LIFE. Interpreting that as death is romantic imagery, and not in line with the Torah principle of the Sacrificial LIFE and that LIFE extends unto death.

Understood, but how does even that perspective of a sacrificial life by one individual demonstrate God's love for humanity?

It may or may not demonstrate Yahshua's love for humanity, but God's? How?

Aren't His promises, Providential care, His presence, guidance and mercy better indicator's that God loves us, and how that love is manifest?

Why and how is it all wrapped up in John 3.16, as so many preachers proclaim?

In the same way as when he gave us Torah. Yeshua is HaTorah in the flesh. In terms of the conversation with Nakdimon;

(Jn3:12-16) "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world(cosmos), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

We look to Yeshua, i.e. His life unto death, to stop the plague caused by rejecting HaTorah. Adonai so loved the cosmos that He provided Yeshua as an example to His people of how to live Torah submissive lives and become permanent witnesses themselves.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 2 by Checkpoint]

may I say instead of referring to Paul as an authority (he only had spiritual experiences with Jesus) , what do you think? What has the spirit of Jesus revealed to you in your prayer and life of faith about this?