Christians don't seem to know what a Christian IS

[Zzyzx]

.
Christians don't seem to know what a Christian IS (cannot come up with a definition that is acceptable to Christendom).

In a current thread someone is berating Non-Christians for acknowledging that they do not know exactly what a Christian IS (means). However, Christians themselves do not know – cannot agree. Having a hundred or thousand different definitions acceptable to only a part of Christendom does NOT constitute a legitimate definition -- only a wide variety of opinions.

Here is an opportunity for Christians to clarify the matter and state exactly what 'a Christian IS'

WHAT, exactly, entitles someone to BE a Christian?

What are the requirements and where are the requirements set forth / listed?

Who sets the requirements that apply to all Christians?

Are the 'requirements' accepted by all branches of Christianity?

If someone who self-identifies as a Christian has beliefs that differ from others who self-identify as Christian, does that difference make one (or the other) NOT a Christian?

Note: the definitions / requirements listed must be acceptable to Eastern Orthodox, Catholicism, and tens of thousands of Protestant sects (including Liberals, Fundamentalists, Amish, Quaker, LDS, Seventh-Day, JW, Holy Rollers, etc, etc).

[Willum]

[Replying to Volbrigade]

Sin is religious, bad stuff, happens regardless, and if you are not Judeo-Christian, bad stuff is just bad stuff, and NOT sin.

Do not equate the two, again, to do so, is very insulting. I see though, that you are doing it innocently, so I will simply say, please do not mix your religious definitions, with human nature, and especially not mix those of us without sin, with Judeo-Christians.

Judeo-Christians sin, the rest of us do not.
You are born in sin, that is what you believe.
The rest of us, are born awesome.
That's what I believe.
I respect your beliefs,kindly respect mine.

[Volbrigade]

[Replying to post 21 by Willum]

I'm getting mixed signals here, Willum.

This is a thread to discuss the topic "Christians don't seem to know what a Christian IS".

As part of that discussion, I have proposed my understanding of what a Christian is.

I think it is a doctrinally and Biblically sound one.

It is what I believe.

You claim to "respect my beliefs". At the same time you are insulted by my expression of them.

Do you see a contradiction there? A disconnect? An incoherency?

This, on a thread dedicated to the charge that Christians don't even know what a Christian is? Surely, if anything qualifies as "insulting", that does?

Perhaps some definition of terms is in order.

What are we talking about when we use the term "Christian"? The author of the OP, as well as others, have said "someone who claims to be a Christian." Okay, fine -- but what do those claims entail? I have stated my case. Do you have an opinion as to what someone who claims to be a Christian is claiming to be?

Also -- you appear to be upset by the word "sin". Perhaps we're using that word differently. Would you care to define what that word means to you?

You ask me to "respect" your beliefs. Can you define what you mean by that word -- "respect"? Does it mean I am not allowed to disagree with them? Nor state my own, if they are different from yours?

You say that non-Christians are "born awesome".

Can you define "awesome"?

[Willum]

[Replying to Volbrigade]

How do I define "awesome?"
I use a dictionary.

I am merely pointing out that the Judeo-Christian sin is something that they do, the rest of us are not sinners, except because Judeo-Christians may say so.

But this is insulting to the rest of us, so when you say "sin," please understand that sin is something disgusting, and only Judeo-Christians admit to doing it. A tangent to the OP, but an important one.

You believe you were born in sin.
We don't.

Be respectful when you accuse who of sinning.
I don't sin, for example.

That you use your Bible to accuse me of an abomination, you stick your nose out too far.

[Zzyzx]

.

This, on a thread dedicated to the charge that Christians don't even know what a Christian is? Surely, if anything qualifies as "insulting", that does?

A rational first step in debating the topic is to correctly read and understand exactly what is said in the OP.

Notice that the OP title is “Christians don't seem to know what a Christian IS�. Most astute readers are likely to understand that “seem to� indicates that an impression has been created. If that impression is in error, perhaps someone is wise enough to clarify as suggested by:

Here is an opportunity for Christians to clarify the matter and state exactly what 'a Christian IS'

1) WHAT, exactly, entitles someone to BE a Christian?

2) What are the requirements and where are the requirements set forth / listed?

3) Who sets the requirements that apply to all Christians?

4) Are the 'requirements' accepted by all branches of Christianity?

Is anyone wise enough and brave enough to give straight-forward answers those four questions? Numbers are provided for convenience and clarity.

Quite frankly, I do not expect any straight-forward answers to those questions because answering straight-forwardly without shucking and jiving would likely illustrate that:

1) there is NO definition / identification of Christian that is accepted throughout Christendom

2) there is NO setting forth of requirements that apply to all of Christendom. Various sects set requirements for their members but not for all of Christianity

3) there is NO ONE empowered to speak for all of Christianity or to set requirements and definitions.

4) there is NO set of requirements acceptable to all branches of Christianity – but there are widely varying requirements.

Thus, “Christians don't seem to know what a Christian IS�. Instead there is a plethora of OPINIONS but no clear statement from all of Christendom.

What are we talking about when we use the term "Christian"?

That distinction should be supplied by Christians – If they know what the term means in Christendom.

The author of the OP, as well as others, have said "someone who claims to be a Christian." Okay, fine -- but what do those claims entail? I have stated my case.

Does this refer to the following?

A Christian is a sinner who has repented of their sins, and accepted the grace and mercy of God, who manifested as a man, Jesus Christ, in order to atone for our sins, so that anyone who CHOOSES to may be justified to God, redeemed by Him, and inherent life everlasting through an eternal relationship with the Triune God, that begins at the moment of salvation.

If so, it seems to reject from 'Christian' those sects and individuals who

A. Do not accept atonement theology

B. Do not accept the triune God hypothesis

C. Do not accept 'original sin'

By whom were those criteria established?

[Volbrigade]

[Replying to Volbrigade]

How do I define "awesome?"
I use a dictionary.

Well. That's... awesome.
______________

awe·some

adjective
extremely impressive or daunting; inspiring great admiration, apprehension, or fear.
"the awesome power of the atomic bomb"
______________

I have to disagree with you. I don't think people are "born awesome". But they can sure become awesome, in every sense. Including "inspiring great... fear".

And that's because they're sinners.

I am merely pointing out that the Judeo-Christian sin is something that they do, the rest of us are not sinners, except because Judeo-Christians may say so.

No.

God says so.

And sin is not something we DO. It is something we ARE.

"A man is not a sinner because he sins. He sins because he is a sinner."

But this is insulting to the rest of us, so when you say "sin," please understand that sin is something disgusting, and only Judeo-Christians admit to doing it. A tangent to the OP, but an important one.

If my posts are upsetting to you, I encourage you to not read them.

And Judeo-Christians are certainly not the only ones that admit to sinning. But Christians are the only ones who can claim to be forgiven by Christ -- who BECAME sin on that cross. For us. And when He died, those sins died with Him.

We are ALL "forgiven our trespasses", at this very moment. The only choice we have is whether we ACCEPT the forgiveness. A pardon refused cannot otherwise be enforced.

You believe you were born in sin.
We don't.

Whether one believes a matter or not is not what determines its truth.

Be respectful when you accuse who of sinning.

Very well.

I respectfully accuse "who" of sinning.

I don't sin, for example.

That you use your Bible to accuse me of an abomination, you stick your nose out too far.

I fail to see where I have accused you of "an abomination". In fact, I haven't levied any accusations at all. Nor have I condemned you. That's not my job. It's above my pay grade. Again -- you seem a little sensitive to this subject matter. Maybe you should peruse another thread?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 25 by Volbrigade]

Yes, so I will ask you one last time:
God is not established on this forum, that is under "Theology and Doctrine."
What God says mean less than zero here, unless it can be substantiated by something other then just the Bible.

So, please be considerate to those of us who think man is awesome and becoming better all the time.
If God says men are born in sin, well, I don't believe in God, so, sin is just as non-existent to me.

But according to Judeo-Christians, it is abhorrent. So, just as you might be offended by say, a Buddhist stating as FACT, you were disgusting for eating meat, or a Jew saying as a FACT you are unclean for eating pork, you give others the same courtesy.

Sin is something disgusting, only you Judeo-Christians do, just as eating meat is disgusting to some. Please be considerate of others and do not inflict those base beliefs of your religion on the rest of us.

Thank you.

[Zzyzx]

.

I am merely pointing out that the Judeo-Christian sin is something that they do, the rest of us are not sinners, except because Judeo-Christians may say so.

No.

God says so.

Some of us did not hear that speech from God. Did you?

Included in the Bible are TALES of people hearing directly from God. Some modern people make that claim also. Is there assurance those tales are true and accurate?

And sin is not something we DO. It is something we ARE.

Condolences to those who think they 'are sin'.

"A man is not a sinner because he sins. He sins because he is a sinner."

Those who believe such things are welcome to them – but they are not welcome to project them onto others

But this is insulting to the rest of us, so when you say "sin," please understand that sin is something disgusting, and only Judeo-Christians admit to doing it. A tangent to the OP, but an important one.

If my posts are upsetting to you, I encourage you to not read them.

And Judeo-Christians are certainly not the only ones that admit to sinning. But Christians are the only ones who can claim to be forgiven by Christ -- who BECAME sin on that cross. For us. And when He died, those sins died with Him.

“CLAIM to be forgiven� seems apropos – anyone can CLAIM whatever they wish – believe whatever they wish. Believing and wishing is not binding on others.

You believe you were born in sin.
We don't.

Whether one believes a matter or not is not what determines its truth.

Agreed. Kindly demonstrate WHY the claim of 'born in sin' is truth – and anything more than a religious story line.

Be respectful when you accuse who of sinning.

Very well.

I respectfully accuse "who" of sinning.

Many Christians seem unable to comprehend that 'sin' is ONLY a religious notion (transgressing against God or breaking God's rules or some such thing). That does NOT apply to anyone other than believers.

To illustrate, do the expectations or rules of Quetzalcoatl apply to Christians? Are they 'sinning' (or whatever) by not following 'his' rules?

Do the rules of Christianity apply to worshipers of Quetzalcoatl?

I don't sin, for example.

That you use your Bible to accuse me of an abomination, you stick your nose out too far.

I fail to see where I have accused you of "an abomination".

Any time it is said or implied that a person is sinning that IS an accusation of 'an abomination' because:

It is abundantly clear from scripture that ALL SIN is considered an abomination by God. While one can debate degrees of seriousness and punishment for sin, it is clear that, according to the Bible, ALL sin is an abomination! http://richardwaynegarganta.com/abomination.htm

That by someone who evidently runs “Universal Salvation University�

And

The words abomination and abominations appear in the New King James Version of the Bible 152 times. When we examine the Greek and Hebrew words translated “abomination� in Scripture, we see that these words have very definite implications. Abomination is used exclusively to describe things that are disgusting, loathsome and absolutely intolerable—things that are unacceptable to God.

Christians would do well to take note of what God labels abominations. Such things, be they actions, attitudes or objects, have no place in the life of a follower of Jesus Christ. Some of the most notable abominations before God include:

Dishonesty (Proverbs 12:22).
Arrogant pride (Proverbs 16:5).
Ignoring God’s law (Proverbs 28:9).
Devising evil and sowing discord (Proverbs 6:16-19).
Eating what the Bible calls “unclean� animals (Leviticus 11:8; Leviticus 11:11; Leviticus 11:13; Leviticus 11:23).
The act of homosexuality (Leviticus 18:22).

The book of Revelation explicitly states concerning the New Jerusalem that God is preparing for His people, “There shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life� (Revelation 21:27).
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/b ... bomination

And

In Proverbs chapter 6 and verses 16 to 19 there is a list of seven things which God hates.
These six things the LORD hates, yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren.
http://www.bridgetothebible.com/Bible%2 ... 0hates.htm

I have opened a thread to consider 'abominations' http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 985#847985

[Volbrigade]

[Replying to post 25 by Volbrigade]

Yes, so I will ask you one last time:
God is not established on this forum, that is under "Theology and Doctrine."
What God says mean less than zero here, unless it can be substantiated by something other then just the Bible.

So, please be considerate to those of us who think man is awesome and becoming better all the time.
If God says men are born in sin, well, I don't believe in God, so, sin is just as non-existent to me.

But according to Judeo-Christians, it is abhorrent. So, just as you might be offended by say, a Buddhist stating as FACT, you were disgusting for eating meat, or a Jew saying as a FACT you are unclean for eating pork, you give others the same courtesy.

Sin is something disgusting, only you Judeo-Christians do, just as eating meat is disgusting to some. Please be considerate of others and do not inflict those base beliefs of your religion on the rest of us.

Thank you.

No, Willum -- I'm afraid I must decline to accept your demands. My responsibility is towards the Truth ("the Way, and the Life"). I am obliged to express that truth with civility on this site. I do not see where I have violated that obligation.

If (e.g.) a Buddhist wants to share his beliefs with me, then I am responsible for whether I am "insulted" by the sharing of those beliefs or not. And if so, then certainly within the medium of a message board, I am free to ignore the expression of those beliefs.

Again: if what I believe, and my expression of it, insults or offends you, I certainly regret that. It is not my intention to insult or offend. I recommend that you simply ignore posts that have "Volbrigade" as their author.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have overlooked a post by Z that is highly offensive and insulting to me, and demands my immediate attention. As well as a following post by him, that is equally highly offensive and insulting.

I should point out -- that last paragraph was written with tongue firmly in cheek.

I will point out, as well, that Z -- not me -- has asserted that ALL sin is "abomination". Truth demands that I assent to that proposition, which heretofore I had politely glossed over.

But let me state clearly, here: sin is indeed "abomination". ALL sin. It is a "missing of the mark". And separation from God.

It is also offensive and insulting, to our Creator.

Who has gone to extraordinary measures to rescue us -- ALL of us -- from its consequences, power -- and ultimately, it's very presence.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 28 by Volbrigade]

You miss the point of the objection. You can believe what you want.
But asserting those beliefs on others is not within the forum scope.

If you accuse anyone other then a Judeo-Christian of sin, you are imposing your belief on us.
So, please either back up your assertion, or stop accusing others of it:

I do not accuse you of being awesome, because I know you believe you were born in sin.
Do not accuse me of sinning.

It's about

Rational and civil debate between members of all religions and world views.

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 28 by Volbrigade]

If (e.g.) a Buddhist wants to share his beliefs with me, then I am responsible for whether I am "insulted" by the sharing of those beliefs or not. And if so, then certainly within the medium of a message board, I am free to ignore the expression of those beliefs.

Hello Volbrigade!!

I think you hit the nail on the head! An insult is sometimes not what the person says, but how the listener perceives it. The beauty of this forum is that if we find something distasteful, we can ignore it, report it, or respond to it. We discuss religion here, and not everyone will agree with our belief's, but we must not change them to make it more palatable for people to hear.

Good post