Is everything connected to the crucifixion?

[Elijah John]

John 10.10

Thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

I hear from Evangelicals phrases such as:

"This is not the abundant life that Jesus died to give you"

Or

"Jesus didn't die so we would be poor"

Or

"Jesus didn't die so we would be sick"

Or

"Jesus didn't' die so we would be lonely."

They say that Jesus died so we could have the abundant life.

But the verse doesn't say anything about him dying to give us all those things.

It only says he came to that we may have the abundant life.

For debate, why do Evangelicals tie everything to the crucifixion?

Couldn't Jesus have meant that he came that we may have abundant life by means of accepting the forgiveness that he proclaimed on the Father's behalf?

Or the faith that he demonstrated?

Or by means of the Wisdom that he taught?

[Elijah John]

And no, every promise in the Bible is NOT about Jesus and the "ransom".

Yes every promise in the Bible IS about Jesus and the "ransom". In that they all relate to it and none of the promises in the bible would be possible without it. (And Adam and Eve were literal people because Jesus referred to them as such)

JW

Ah, so that proves it? I doubt Jesus was infallible. We both believe he was not God. He was a man of his times and culture. A righteous man(by most accounts),a spiritual man, rabbi, preacher, prophet, but a man just the same.

Jesus was not a scientist nor was he an historian.

Please demonstrate that ALL the promises are about Jesus and dependent on "the ransom". See, here is where you go beyond your protestation that these are your beliefs. Now in this case and others, you are stating that the "ransom" and other things are facts.

No, it is not against the rules to state your beliefs, or to have them challenged. And preaching is a borderline offense, a fine line at times. In cases such as this, it is often handled by debate. Some reported preaching infractions are cleared by the team with the recommendation that they be handled by debate. But not all...

And regarding your group's attempt to "bar the door" to any but folks who believe like you do... when I say "in your imagination" that is my way of stating that your beliefs do not affect, nor do they limit God's expansive mercy, and Him being merciful to whomever He wants to.

In the end, I believe God will save whom he chooses to save, as He alone knows the individual's heart. Shouldn't we all have a bit of humility when proclaiming who is saved and who is "lost"? Better still, shouldn't we all avoid such proclamations in the first place?

[polonius]

Jesus of Nazareth was executed by the Romans for the crime of insurrection along with two other insurrectionists. It was one of two crimes at that time which was dealt with by crucifixion rather than some other form of execution.

The actual crime was saying or allowing people to believe that he was the Jewish Messiah, who, as well established in the Old Testament was to occupy the Throne of David as a King of the Jews.

Note what is reported to be on the charge sheet attached to Jesus' cross.

Anyone who claimed to be king was guilty of treason. "We have no king but Caesar" Remember?

It was Paul's writings starting in the 50's that claimed that Jesus' death was really an "atonement" to God, although God is on record as saying he did not want human sacrifice.

An ignominious crime by their founder was unpalatable to Jesus' followers, so Paul gave it a sacrificial purpose.

[bluethread]

I have always rejected this Old Testament idea from the very beginning, because I felt that the very idea of atoning sins by killing an animal is already absurd. I would expect an intelligent God to demand restitution rather than giving amnesty if an mere animal is sacrificed on behalf of the sinner. A rich man can atone a whale of a lot of sin by just having a sacrificial feast of his livestock ever so often.

A poor many who doesn't own an unblemished animal would need to die for his sins.

It already doesn't add up.

Once again, you misstate the case. Adonai does demand restitution. The sacrifice is a memorial acknowledgement of HaTorah, not an equity remedy. Also, the poor are granted the opportunity to provide a lesser sacrifice, i.e. doves.

What?

Where in the Bible does it say that a man can atone for his own sins via his own restitution?

Show me.

You asked why Adonal does not demand restitution. That is not the case. Here is just one example. (Exodus 22:1 NIV) �Whoever steals an ox or a sheep and slaughters it or sells it must pay back five head of cattle for the ox and four sheep for the sheep. "

If that were the case there would be no need for Christ to die to pay for the sins of men since men could make restitution for their own sins.

You people constantly misrepresent the Biblical paradigm and the demands of Christianity.

Christianity DOES NOT ALLOW for us to make our own restitution for our sin.

If that were permitted it would be a whole different religion. And there would be no need for everyone to accept Christ as their "savior" since they could redeem themselves via their own restitution.

You people constantly make apologies for this religion that aren't even compatible with the religion at all.

You didn't say Christian doctrine, you said, "this Old Testament idea". You then imply that Adonai does not demand restitution. That is simply not what the "old Testament" says. Forgiveness, according to Torah, requires recognition(sacrifice), restitution and reformation.

[JehovahsWitness]

Please demonstrate that ALL the promises are about Jesus and dependent on "the ransom".

Was there a part of post 16 by JehovahsWitness you did n't understand? Feel free to re-read if you so wish including the line in green.

See, here is where you go beyond your protestation that these are your beliefs. Now in this case and others, you are stating that the "ransom" and other things are facts.

I BELIEVE they are facts, believing they are facts is part of my beliefs. For details please see post #16 above.



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

In the end, I believe God will save whom he chooses to save, as He alone knows the individual's heart.

I believe that too.

Shouldn't we all have a bit of humility when proclaiming who is saved and who is "lost"? Better still, shouldn't we all avoid such proclamations in the first place?

Absolutely, yes indeed, I would agree wholeheartedly.


The only thing I would add to the above is that the ransom is central to salvation, those that don't accept it will never have eternal life and Jehovah's Witness have the only true religion on earth today.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 21 by Elijah John]

And regarding your group's attempt to "bar the door" to any but folks who believe like you do... when I say "in your imagination" that is my way of stating that your beliefs do not affect, nor do they limit God's expansive mercy, and Him being merciful to whomever He wants to.

In the end, I believe God will save whom he chooses to save, as He alone knows the individual's heart. Shouldn't we all have a bit of humility when proclaiming who is saved and who is "lost"? Better still, shouldn't we all avoid such proclamations in the first place?

We have our differences, including on this thread, but I do agree with you on this matter.

1 Corinthians 4:

1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful.

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.

5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

James 2:

12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.
13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

[Elijah John]

In the end, I believe God will save whom he chooses to save, as He alone knows the individual's heart.

I believe that too.

Shouldn't we all have a bit of humility when proclaiming who is saved and who is "lost"? Better still, shouldn't we all avoid such proclamations in the first place?

Absolutely, yes indeed, I would agree wholeheartedly.


The only thing I would add to the above is that the ransom is central to salvation, those that don't accept it will never have eternal life and Jehovah's Witness have the only true religion on earth today.

Your proviso at the end contradicts your agreement.

But perhaps you are right, and Jesus "ransom" makes all this possible. Whether we know it or not.

But I doubt it, it seems overly convoluted, contradictory and based on a primal myth.

Especially when compared to the pure Monotheism and simple repentance that the historical Jesus seems to have taught. Like the OT prophets, no blood needed. Except that seems to have been the price HE (Jesus) paid for his witnessing to the Truth of that message of simple, direct repentance, subversive to the Temple system.

Why is there no mention of blood or "ransom" in the Lord's prayer? Or in the Beattitude? Or the repentance parables?

But that is one of the things I like about JW teachings. At least you folks believe that God gives people another chance.

But what if He tells you you folks had it wrong on blood sacrifice? That He never needed blood in the first place in order to forgive?

I'm guessing He'll let y'all into Heaven anyway. Even if your religion proves to contain some significant error.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 15 by Elijah John]

You are right I am stating my BELIEFS and I believe that the bible absolutely PROVES this to be true. and that the Scriptures sited prove my point entirely. Naturally since we are talking about beliefs there is no burden of proof. Still it only fair I explain WHY I believe as I do which, as I implied earlier is because of how I understand scripture (scriptures above)


If you think my beliefs are absurd and don't accept how I interpret scripture, you are free to say so, I am not here to impose my view on anyone. I believe what Jehovah's Witnesses do proves them to be God's people and the only organisation that has God's backing on earth today. I repeat I believe it is PROOF, I believe it does indeed demonstrate the truth of our statements BUT THESE ARE BELIEFS. I acknowlwdge that believing something doesn't make it true.

I have shared my OPINION on scripture, and beliefs about what that proves, is that against the rules?


NOTE You can take the above to apply to whenever I express personal belief and opinion.

Please demonstrate that all the promises of the Bible (including those contained in the Old Testament) are tied to the crucifixion of Jesus.

Stating they are tied, "in your opinion" does not demonstrate that they are tied.

Can you demonstrate the connection in a paragraph or two, and without resorting to links?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 15 by Elijah John]

You are right I am stating my BELIEFS and I believe that the bible absolutely PROVES this to be true. and that the Scriptures sited prove my point entirely. Naturally since we are talking about beliefs there is no burden of proof. Still it only fair I explain WHY I believe as I do which, as I implied earlier is because of how I understand scripture (scriptures above)


If you think my beliefs are absurd and don't accept how I interpret scripture, you are free to say so, I am not here to impose my view on anyone. I believe what Jehovah's Witnesses do proves them to be God's people and the only organisation that has God's backing on earth today. I repeat I believe it is PROOF, I believe it does indeed demonstrate the truth of our statements BUT THESE ARE BELIEFS. I acknowlwdge that believing something doesn't make it true.

I have shared my OPINION on scripture, and beliefs about what that proves, is that against the rules?


NOTE You can take the above to apply to whenever I express personal belief and opinion.

Please demonstrate that all the promises of the Bible (including those contained in the Old Testament) are tied to the crucifixion of Jesus.

Stating they are tied, "in your opinion" does not demonstrate that they are tied.

Can you demonstrate the connection in a paragraph or two, and without resorting to links?

What part of the line in green are you not understanding?

I don't have to demonstrate my beliefs.

I don't have to demonstrate my opinion.