Sin prevents us from going to heaven?

[rikuoamero]

It's long been argued on this site that sin supposedly prevents humans from being close with God, from entering heaven etc.
That apparently, the only thing that could, for lack of a better word, destroy sin was Jesus being nailed to a piece of wood.
However, if one reads the Old Testament, we hear of two men: Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah, and the prophet Elijah going to heaven and being with God.
This is of course LONG before Jesus.

So I'd like to ask...what gives?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]



Neither actually says to these men died and went to heaven (where God lives). These are assumptions on the part of the reader and not necessarily accurate ones.


JW

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

I'll grant you that, JW with regards to Enoch. It says of him
And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Is your argument that the text means Enoch did not go to God, to be with him? That he is dead, destroyed?
I'll grant you that the text is unclear for Enoch, and that arguments can be made either way.

As for Elijah...? I'm afraid I've got you in a bind there mate. 2 Kings Chapter 2 opens up with the following (taken from NWT)
When Jehovah was about to take E·liʹjah+ up to the heavens* in a windstorm,+ E·liʹjah and E·liʹsha+ went out from Gilʹgal
A bit further down the page, just so there is no ambiguity...
As they were walking along, speaking as they walked, suddenly a fiery chariot and fiery horses+ made a separation between the two of them, and E·liʹjah ascended to the heavens* in the windstorm.

[1213]

It's long been argued on this site that sin supposedly prevents humans from being close with God, from entering heaven etc.
That apparently, the only thing that could, for lack of a better word, destroy sin was Jesus being nailed to a piece of wood.
However, if one reads the Old Testament, we hear of two men: Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah, and the prophet Elijah going to heaven and being with God.
This is of course LONG before Jesus.

So I'd like to ask...what gives?

Maybe Enoch and Elijah are righteous and without sin?

[rikuoamero]

It's long been argued on this site that sin supposedly prevents humans from being close with God, from entering heaven etc.
That apparently, the only thing that could, for lack of a better word, destroy sin was Jesus being nailed to a piece of wood.
However, if one reads the Old Testament, we hear of two men: Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah, and the prophet Elijah going to heaven and being with God.
This is of course LONG before Jesus.

So I'd like to ask...what gives?

Maybe Enoch and Elijah are righteous and without sin?

I'm going to have to ask you to consider the implications of that. What would that mean for the Christian religion, the claims it makes regarding Jesus, and why he apparently just HAD to be crucified?

[JehovahsWitness]

2 KINGS 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.- King James Bible

#QUESTION: What does the bible mean when it uses the word "heaven(s)"?


The word heaven(s) is used in the bible to refer to a number of different things associted with height/that which is above, from a human perspective.

#1. [The] Heaven(s): Outer space/The physical universe consisting of stars and planets. Isaiah 13:10 "For the stars of the heavens and their constellations"

#2. [The] Heaven(s): The sky/atmosphere where birds fly. Isaiah 45:8 ""You heavens, rain down from above; Let the clouds pour ..." Deut 4:17 " any winged bird that flieth in the heavens"

#3. [The] Heaven(s): The spiritual realm where God lives. Psalms 33:13, 14 "Jehovah looks down from heaven [...] From his place of residence"

#QUESTION: Does the bible indictate which of the above Elijah was taken to?

Yes, the event happened during the reign of the Jewish king Jehoshaphat, as is evident from the fact that Jehoshaphat was alive to speak with Elijah's successor Elishah (see 2 Kings 3:11). Yet a number of years later, during the reign of Jehoshaphat's son Jehoram, the bible speaks of Elijah alive and well, and writing a letter.

“And Jehoshaphat rested with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the City of David. Then Jehoram his son reigned in his place.� - 2 Chronicles 21:1

“And a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, ... Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father, or in the ways of Asa king of Judah…� - 2 Chronicles 21:12

How could Elijah write a letter after he had been taken to the heavens unless he was alive when Jehoram became king? The only logical conclusion is that Elijah didn't die at all but was taken up not to the highest heaven where God lives, and not into outer space (where presumably he would die of asphyxia) but up into the sky #3 and transported to another location on the earth.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 6 by JehovahsWitness]

Why are you, a Jehovah's Witness, using the King James? Haven't you argued in the past about being as true to the Bible, the original text, as one can be, and that the JWs have done this with the NWT?

The word heaven(s) is used in the bible to refer to a number of different things associted with height/that which is above, from a human perspective.

Is this to say that Elijah flew about up in the sky like for a bird for a while? Why?

Or in outer space?

How could Elijah write a letter after he had been taken to the heavens unless he was alive when Jehoram became king?

Are you now arguing that dead people, once dead, quite simply do not and cannot do anything afterward?
If so, you and I are in agreement, and I'll happily help you out now that you no longer profess that Jesus rose from the dead and subsequently appeared to his disciples post-mortem.

To be honest - I'm surprised you didn't see what I was doing, what I was leading you to say.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

Before Jesus people were saved by their faith in Jesus and after Jesus they are saved by their faith in Jesus.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

Before Jesus people were saved by their faith in Jesus and after Jesus they are saved by their faith in Jesus.

Are you sure you're in the right thread, Wootah? I don't see what relevance what you say there has to anything in this thread.

[ttruscott]

It's long been argued on this site that sin supposedly prevents humans from being close with God, from entering heaven etc.

To be precise, sin does not prevent people enjoying the heavenly state with GOD or no sinner could ever join HIM. It is being outside of being forgiven for their sin that causes some sinners to not be able to enter the heavenly state with HIM.