Heaven vs New Earth: The Final Destination

[American Deist]

The term 'heaven' comes from the Koine Greek ο��ανός [ouranos]. It has three different meanings:

1. The dwelling place of God
2. The cosmos/universe
3. The sky

Contrary to traditional belief, the Bible never states that those who are saved will go to Heaven [God's dwelling place] upon death. If you think it does, I challenge you to find the verse. Don't even bring up Luke 23:43. Koine Greek did not use punctuation marks, so there would not be a comma.

It is "best guess" when written this way: "And Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

But since punctuation was not used, it could also be written this way: "And Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

The latter comma placement puts it in future tense, which supports the next part of the lesson.

Revelation 20:11-15 talks about the dead being raised and judged according to their deeds. They are raised from the grave (Greek hades) and from the sea. We are not raised from "Heaven" during the resurrection and judgment.

Those who are "saved" will go on to paradise on New Earth. You can find that in Revelation 21:1. That same chapter even talks about New Jerusalem coming down from the sky [heavens - Greek ouranos]. Paradise is also where Jesus told the thief on the cross they would be [in the future].

That is why it is so important to understand the proper context of the Koine Greek.

So where do you go when you die? The Bible very clearly tells us that you go to the grave. There you will wait for the resurrection and judgment. But fear not, for "the dead know nothing," which means you won't feel time passing by in the grave. For those who die, the resurrection and judgment will seem instantaneous, even though eons could pass in the meantime.

It is incorrect to use Heaven when referencing Paradise. If you want to be biblically correct, just start saying Paradise or New Earth.

[theophile]

[Replying to post 1 by American Deist]

Agree. I don't know how people can, with any coherence, uphold both the popular idea of heaven and resurrection.

Resurrection is clearly the promise of Christ.

[American Deist]

[Replying to post 2 by theophile]

People don't read the Bible...or don't comprehend it. So many rely on random preacher X to tell them what the Bible says. They blindly accept what they are told. The problem you run into there is that preacher X may simply be repeating traditional teachings instead of actual biblical ones.

[Realworldjack]

The term 'heaven' comes from the Koine Greek ο��ανός [ouranos]. It has three different meanings:

1. The dwelling place of God
2. The cosmos/universe
3. The sky

Contrary to traditional belief, the Bible never states that those who are saved will go to Heaven [God's dwelling place] upon death. If you think it does, I challenge you to find the verse. Don't even bring up Luke 23:43. Koine Greek did not use punctuation marks, so there would not be a comma.

It is "best guess" when written this way: "And Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

But since punctuation was not used, it could also be written this way: "And Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

The latter comma placement puts it in future tense, which supports the next part of the lesson.

Revelation 20:11-15 talks about the dead being raised and judged according to their deeds. They are raised from the grave (Greek hades) and from the sea. We are not raised from "Heaven" during the resurrection and judgment.

Those who are "saved" will go on to paradise on New Earth. You can find that in Revelation 21:1. That same chapter even talks about New Jerusalem coming down from the sky [heavens - Greek ouranos]. Paradise is also where Jesus told the thief on the cross they would be [in the future].

That is why it is so important to understand the proper context of the Koine Greek.

So where do you go when you die? The Bible very clearly tells us that you go to the grave. There you will wait for the resurrection and judgment. But fear not, for "the dead know nothing," which means you won't feel time passing by in the grave. For those who die, the resurrection and judgment will seem instantaneous, even though eons could pass in the meantime.

It is incorrect to use Heaven when referencing Paradise. If you want to be biblically correct, just start saying Paradise or New Earth.

Would you happen to be an Advent Christian? Or have you read, "The Fire That Consumes?"

[shnarkle]

The term 'heaven' comes from the Koine Greek ο��ανός [ouranos]. It has three different meanings:

1. The dwelling place of God
2. The cosmos/universe
3. The sky

Contrary to traditional belief, the Bible never states that those who are saved will go to Heaven [God's dwelling place] upon death. If you think it does, I challenge you to find the verse. Don't even bring up Luke 23:43. Koine Greek did not use punctuation marks, so there would not be a comma.

It is "best guess" when written this way: "And Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

But since punctuation was not used, it could also be written this way: "And Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

The latter comma placement puts it in future tense, which supports the next part of the lesson.

Revelation 20:11-15 talks about the dead being raised and judged according to their deeds. They are raised from the grave (Greek hades) and from the sea. We are not raised from "Heaven" during the resurrection and judgment.

Those who are "saved" will go on to paradise on New Earth. You can find that in Revelation 21:1. That same chapter even talks about New Jerusalem coming down from the sky [heavens - Greek ouranos]. Paradise is also where Jesus told the thief on the cross they would be [in the future].

That is why it is so important to understand the proper context of the Koine Greek.

So where do you go when you die? The Bible very clearly tells us that you go to the grave. There you will wait for the resurrection and judgment. But fear not, for "the dead know nothing," which means you won't feel time passing by in the grave. For those who die, the resurrection and judgment will seem instantaneous, even though eons could pass in the meantime.

It is incorrect to use Heaven when referencing Paradise. If you want to be biblically correct, just start saying Paradise or New Earth.

The thief asked Jesus to remember him as he entered into his kingdom. So unless Jesus just ignored him altogether, he would be responding to him about a subject that is pervasive throughout the Old Testament; the kingdom of messiah which is on the earth for a thousand years. The Hebrew idiom "I say to thee this day" is used to express very solemn emphasis and occurs over 40 times in the old testament.

it doesn't make much sense to say that Jesus was in paradise and in the grave and proclaiming victory over death in Tartarus, unless one thinks the dead are very busy, and really get around.

What is time in relation to eternity? It isn't even a parenthetical dash; it's less than this: ()

[American Deist]

[Replying to post 4 by Realworldjack]

No and no.

[American Deist]

The thief asked Jesus to remember him as he entered into his kingdom.

Yes, the thief asked Jesus to remember him as Jesus entered his kingdom. Jesus replied, "Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise." The commas were omitted to show a point. Jesus is essentially saying "you will be on my mind...I will remember you." The thief will be resurrected and judged with the rest of us, sometime in the future.

it doesn't make much sense to say that Jesus was in paradise and in the grave and proclaiming victory over death in Tartarus, unless one thinks the dead are very busy, and really get around.

That is correct. Jesus did not immediately go to Paradise. He went to the grave. That was the whole point behind the crucifixion-resurrection.

If you believe the Tartarus narrative, then you have to deal with the concept that Jesus was not dead, but in a different realm. That is an example of yet another contradiction that pops up when multiple writers try and tell the Jesus story, decades apart, who were not eye witnesses.

[shnarkle]

The thief asked Jesus to remember him as he entered into his kingdom.

Yes, the thief asked Jesus to remember him as Jesus entered his kingdom. Jesus replied, "Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise." The commas were omitted to show a point. Jesus is essentially saying "you will be on my mind...I will remember you." The thief will be resurrected and judged with the rest of us, sometime in the future.

I think it's more along the lines of something like: "Verily I say to thee today (or this day, when, though they were about to die, this man had expressed so great faith in Christ's coming kingdom, and resurrection to be its King, now, under such solemn circumstances) you shall be with Me in Paradise". Because when Messiah shall reign, His kingdom will convert the Promised land into a Paradise. e.g. Isa. 35

There's also the definite Article before "Paradise". It is THE Paradise which the prophets talk of in such glowing language when the Lord shall come in his Kingdom. e.g. Ps. 67:4,6; 72:6,7,16,17 Isa. 4:2; 30:23,24;etc.

It is a direct answer to the thief's prayer/request which referred to the Lord's coming and his kingdom. If His answer was direct, the promise must have referred to that coming and to that kingdom, and not to anything that was happening that day when he replied to him.

it doesn't make much sense to say that Jesus was in paradise and in the grave and proclaiming victory over death in Tartarus, unless one thinks the dead are very busy, and really get around.

That is correct. Jesus did not immediately go to Paradise. He went to the grave. That was the whole point behind the crucifixion-resurrection.

If you believe the Tartarus narrative, then you have to deal with the concept that Jesus was not dead, but in a different realm. That is an example of yet another contradiction that pops up when multiple writers try and tell the Jesus story, decades apart, who were not eye witnesses.

The Tartarus narrative is simply Peter's way of showing that Christ's death itself proclaims the victory over death that those spirits in Tartarus had attempted to thwart.

[American Deist]

[Replying to post 8 by shnarkle]

The thief asked Jesus to remember him.
Jesus said he would.

Occam's Razor.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 8 by shnarkle]

The thief asked Jesus to remember him.
Jesus said he would.

Occam's Razor.

Right. When was Jesus to remember him? When he entered into his kingdom. He wasn't entering into his kingdom that day. He won't be entering into his kingdom until he actually enters into his kingdom. That will be when he remembers him.