Heaven vs New Earth: The Final Destination

[American Deist]

The term 'heaven' comes from the Koine Greek ο��ανός [ouranos]. It has three different meanings:

1. The dwelling place of God
2. The cosmos/universe
3. The sky

Contrary to traditional belief, the Bible never states that those who are saved will go to Heaven [God's dwelling place] upon death. If you think it does, I challenge you to find the verse. Don't even bring up Luke 23:43. Koine Greek did not use punctuation marks, so there would not be a comma.

It is "best guess" when written this way: "And Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

But since punctuation was not used, it could also be written this way: "And Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

The latter comma placement puts it in future tense, which supports the next part of the lesson.

Revelation 20:11-15 talks about the dead being raised and judged according to their deeds. They are raised from the grave (Greek hades) and from the sea. We are not raised from "Heaven" during the resurrection and judgment.

Those who are "saved" will go on to paradise on New Earth. You can find that in Revelation 21:1. That same chapter even talks about New Jerusalem coming down from the sky [heavens - Greek ouranos]. Paradise is also where Jesus told the thief on the cross they would be [in the future].

That is why it is so important to understand the proper context of the Koine Greek.

So where do you go when you die? The Bible very clearly tells us that you go to the grave. There you will wait for the resurrection and judgment. But fear not, for "the dead know nothing," which means you won't feel time passing by in the grave. For those who die, the resurrection and judgment will seem instantaneous, even though eons could pass in the meantime.

It is incorrect to use Heaven when referencing Paradise. If you want to be biblically correct, just start saying Paradise or New Earth.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 8 by shnarkle]

The thief asked Jesus to remember him.
Jesus said he would.

Occam's Razor.

Right. When was Jesus to remember him? When he entered into his kingdom. He wasn't entering into his kingdom that day. He won't be entering into his kingdom until he actually enters into his kingdom. That will be when he remembers him.

Let's stay with things we know.

Jesus only dies as to the body; the Chrsit, the Word is eternal.
Even we only die as to the body and our spirit leaves the body and enters another dimensnsion (spiritual) corroborated by thousands of NDEs.
The thief on the cross and Christ would have been united immediately after the bodily death of both.

[American Deist]

[Replying to post 11 by Monta]

NDEs do not prove anything. That is a clinical death, not a legal death. During a NDE, there is still brain activity as neurons are firing. In the cases of NDEs, "death" is only for a minute or two until resuscitated. It is not a true death.

A legal death is where the body dies and starts going into decomposition and rigor mortis. If someone undergoes this and then comes back to life (never happened) we can talk. Until then, NDEs don't mean or prove squat.

[American Deist]

The thief on the cross and Christ would have been united immediately after the bodily death of both.

And, no.

Paradise does not happen until after the resurrection. That is what was meant by people not reading their Bible, especially Revelation.

[Monta]

[Replying to American Deist]

"NDEs do not prove anything. That is a clinical death, not a legal death. During a NDE, there is still brain activity as neurons are firing. In the cases of NDEs, "death" is only for a minute or two until resuscitated. It is not a true death. "

According to medical profession many were classed as clinically dead.
Check out Ebon Alexander.

[American Deist]

[Replying to American Deist]

"NDEs do not prove anything. That is a clinical death, not a legal death. During a NDE, there is still brain activity as neurons are firing. In the cases of NDEs, "death" is only for a minute or two until resuscitated. It is not a true death. "

According to medical profession many were classed as clinically dead.
Check out Ebon Alexander.

Yes, which means they did not start to decomp or go through rigor. Clinical death means nothing.

[William]

When you say to someone, "I will send you an invite to my party" you don't bother starting the sentence with "Today I say to you, I will send you an invite to my party".

There seems little point in adding the 'today' bit.

[American Deist]

[Replying to post 16 by William]

Can't look at the Bible through a modern lens. Besides, Koine Greek did not use punctuation marks, which means no comma. The placement of said comma in English is best guess only. My placement supports Revelation.

[William]

[Replying to post 11 by Monta]

NDEs do not prove anything. That is a clinical death, not a legal death. During a NDE, there is still brain activity as neurons are firing. In the cases of NDEs, "death" is only for a minute or two until resuscitated. It is not a true death.

A legal death is where the body dies and starts going into decomposition and rigor mortis. If someone undergoes this and then comes back to life (never happened) we can talk. Until then, NDEs don't mean or prove squat.

I have had OOBEs and I can tell you from those that they prove to me (subjectively speaking) that there is more to the human consciousness than brain activity.

If you wish to argue from that position, then you might as well just say that consciousness is a creation of the brain and that when the brain dies, so too does the consciousness.

If you want to believe that the body and the individuate consciousness (the being/person etc) stays in the ground until death, what keeps the consciousness in the ground since the brain itself has long transformed back to earth?

[William]

[Replying to post 16 by William]

Can't look at the Bible through a modern lens.

Are you saying that this is just how people spoke in those days?

I mean, it is a stretch for that. 'Today' is always 'today' so why use to state the obvious?

Furthermore we can tell by reading other interactions between people in the bible that they didn't start their sentences off by stating the obvious "at this time I speak to you" when obviously the event is happening 'at this time'.

This kind of thing usually happens in formal occasions "On this day I declare."

Are you saying that this is the context that the passage needs to be viewed?

But then, why not just state 'on this day' rather than 'today'?

[American Deist]

[Replying to post 18 by William]

OOBE is not death. You did not start decomposing or going through rigor mortis. When that happens and you come back, then you have something to talk about.