Heaven vs New Earth: The Final Destination

[American Deist]

The term 'heaven' comes from the Koine Greek ο��ανός [ouranos]. It has three different meanings:

1. The dwelling place of God
2. The cosmos/universe
3. The sky

Contrary to traditional belief, the Bible never states that those who are saved will go to Heaven [God's dwelling place] upon death. If you think it does, I challenge you to find the verse. Don't even bring up Luke 23:43. Koine Greek did not use punctuation marks, so there would not be a comma.

It is "best guess" when written this way: "And Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

But since punctuation was not used, it could also be written this way: "And Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

The latter comma placement puts it in future tense, which supports the next part of the lesson.

Revelation 20:11-15 talks about the dead being raised and judged according to their deeds. They are raised from the grave (Greek hades) and from the sea. We are not raised from "Heaven" during the resurrection and judgment.

Those who are "saved" will go on to paradise on New Earth. You can find that in Revelation 21:1. That same chapter even talks about New Jerusalem coming down from the sky [heavens - Greek ouranos]. Paradise is also where Jesus told the thief on the cross they would be [in the future].

That is why it is so important to understand the proper context of the Koine Greek.

So where do you go when you die? The Bible very clearly tells us that you go to the grave. There you will wait for the resurrection and judgment. But fear not, for "the dead know nothing," which means you won't feel time passing by in the grave. For those who die, the resurrection and judgment will seem instantaneous, even though eons could pass in the meantime.

It is incorrect to use Heaven when referencing Paradise. If you want to be biblically correct, just start saying Paradise or New Earth.

[shnarkle]

When you say to someone, "I will send you an invite to my party" you don't bother starting the sentence with "Today I say to you, I will send you an invite to my party".

There seems little point in adding the 'today' bit.

It is a Hebraism to emphasize the solemnity of what is being said at that moment, about that moment. Inviting someone to a party is hardly what would be considered a solemn event.

There are numerous examples in the Old Testament, and a few in the New as well.

There's a parable that makes a similar statement with, "this night".

The land of a rich man was very productive. 17 And he began reasoning to himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?’ 18 Then he said, ‘This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry.�’ 20 But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’ 21 So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

The translators added the word "very" to indicate the emphasis of the Hebraism that doesn't quite translate straight across to English as well.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 16 by William]

Can't look at the Bible through a modern lens. Besides, Koine Greek did not use punctuation marks, which means no comma. The placement of said comma in English is best guess only. My placement supports Revelation.

It's not just the punctuation. The translators blew it as well being ignorant of the Hebraism. Just merely saying "today" really doesn't cut it, especially in English. They should have translated it as "this very day", e.g. "I say to you this very day...etc." While this could be interpreted as meaning they would be in paradise that day as well, at least it would point to the fact that he's emphasizing his solemn assurance of being with messiah in his kingdom.

[William]

[Replying to post 16 by William]

Can't look at the Bible through a modern lens. Besides, Koine Greek did not use punctuation marks, which means no comma. The placement of said comma in English is best guess only. My placement supports Revelation.

It's not just the punctuation. The translators blew it as well being ignorant of the Hebraism. Just merely saying "today" really doesn't cut it, especially in English. They should have translated it as "this very day", e.g. "I say to you this very day...etc." While this could be interpreted as meaning they would be in paradise that day as well, at least it would point to the fact that he's emphasizing his solemn assurance of being with messiah in his kingdom.

Yes this was what I was thinking when I wrote my second post. Your explanation brings more to the table and made it easier to understand in fuller context, which is what was being hinted at by American Deist, but still leaving room for debate.

[William]

[Replying to post 18 by William]

OOBE is not death.

I did not say it was. What I did say is that it shows the individual that there is more to consciousness and experiences than the human form and the universe than just the normal experience consciousness has from using the human form as a medium.

You did not start decomposing or going through rigor mortis. When that happens and you come back, then you have something to talk about.

Obviously. But that was not my argument, and still is not my argument. My argument says that I have something to talk about re this concept, from personal experience.

If you wish to argue from that position, then you might as well just say that consciousness is a creation of the brain and that when the brain dies, so too does the consciousness.

No need for GOD or Resurrection beliefs.

If you want to believe that the body and the individuate consciousness (the being/person etc) stays in the ground until death,


Q: what keeps the consciousness in the ground since the brain itself has long transformed back to earth?

[Monta]

[Replying to post 15 by American Deist]

"Yes, which means they did not start to decomp or go through rigor. Clinical death means nothing."

That's not according to medical profession.

Some, when they are cornered, start making up new rules.

[American Deist]

[Replying to post 15 by American Deist]

"Yes, which means they did not start to decomp or go through rigor. Clinical death means nothing."

That's not according to medical profession.

Some, when they are cornered, start making up new rules.

Seriously? Did you even pay attention to what was said?

Clinical death: when someone "dies" for a few minutes until they are resuscitated. Often during a medical procedure. During this time the brain still has activity. NDEs are a clinical death. Bodies do not start decomposing or go through rigor mortis during a NDE.

Legal death: the body is completely dead. No heart beat, no brain activity, body temperature drops rapidly. Lividity sets in, bacteria in the body starts the decomp process, the muscles stiffen causing rigor mortis.

Feel free to look it up. Sorry if having a NDE does not really mean anything other than your brain is firing neurons.

[William]

Sorry if having a NDE does not really mean anything other than your brain is firing neurons.

No need to be 'sorry'...just answer the question.

Q: what keeps the consciousness in the ground since the brain itself has long transformed back to earth?

[Monta]

[Replying to American Deist]



"Feel free to look it up. Sorry if having a NDE does not really mean anything other than your brain is firing neurons."

if your brain is firing neurons you are not having NDE.

"Dr. Michael Sabom is a cardiologist whose book entitled Light and Death includes a detailed medical and scientific analysis of an amazing near-death experience of a woman named Pam Reynolds. She underwent a rare operation to remove a giant basilar artery aneurysm in her brain that threatened her life. The size and location of the aneurysm, however, precluded its safe removal using the standard neuro-surgical techniques. She was referred to a doctor who had pioneered a daring surgical procedure known as hypothermic cardiac arrest. It allowed Pam's aneurysm to be excised with a reasonable chance of success. This operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life.."
http://www.near-death.com/science/evide ... -dead.html

[American Deist]

[Replying to post 28 by Monta]

And she had a clinical death for a few minutes, under the care of medical staff. Her body did not start decomposition or go through rigor mortis. What's your point?

There's a reason why NDEs are referred to as a NEAR death experience instead of a death experience.

[William]

[Replying to post 29 by American Deist]


You still haven't answered my question:


Q: what keeps the consciousness in the ground since the brain itself has long transformed back to earth?