This "Generation"

[postroad]

Looking over the text and no internal evidence of anything other than a prophecy addressed to the Disciples and their generation. He even promises they will survive unscathed.

Luke 21:10-32New International Version (NIV)

10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.�

29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

[American Deist]

Stop looking at the Bible through a modern lens. Jesus' reference was to the audience that he was speaking in front of. He made a prediction and it did not happen. That generation died. And the next. And next. And next. And...you get the idea.

Simply put, Jesus was wrong about that.

[theophile]

[Replying to postroad]

Is a sceptic not justified in believing that Jesus simply wasn't what he claimed to be? Do you extend this suspension of critical interpretation to other religions holy books?

What did Jesus claim to be? I would expect a skeptic to apply reason to the text. No more, no less. I would not expect them to insist on a highly literal, narrow interpretation and reject the text on that grounds. I would be highly skeptical of that approach for good reason.

Also, what do you mean by "suspension of critical interpretation"? Do you mean open-mindedness to what the text may be saying? It doesn't sound like you mean that, but that's what I'm doing.

I am all for critical interpretation. (You'll notice, I fully agree with you that your reading of the text needs to be criticized. That it is absurd.)

And yes, I would extend my open-mindedness to other religious holy books.

[William]

Stop looking at the Bible through a modern lens. Jesus' reference was to the audience that he was speaking in front of. He made a prediction and it did not happen. That generation died. And the next. And next. And next. And...you get the idea.

Simply put, Jesus was wrong about that.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away. No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.…

So either there is a contradiction (in which case, which reference does one choose?) or in context, theophile has more exact interpretation re 'generations' and 'end of sin' age.

Since in the above, Jesus is said to say that even he didn't know, why would Jesus thus imply that he did know? Thus, he wasn't implying anything other than saying that eventually it would happen 'at the end of this generation'. (this chapter in the story as it were.)

Seems reasonable enough to me.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 13 by William]
Which means that even the Holy Spirit doesn't know the mind of God. Leading to the Spirit not being able to reveal anything of God to anyone. Now what? The Bible is nothing more than the imagination of men? I mean the three are equal or they are not. If one part is keeping secrets from the others then all bets are off concidering the trustworthiness of the concept.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 12 by theophile]
He claimed to be perfectly one with the Father.

John 17:10
All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

[William]

[Replying to post 13 by William]
Which means that even the Holy Spirit doesn't know the mind of God. Leading to the Spirit not being able to reveal anything of God to anyone. Now what? The Bible is nothing more than the imagination of men? I mean the three are equal or they are not. If one part is keeping secrets from the others then all bets are off concidering the trustworthiness of the concept.

No mention of the HS in relation to forecasting this event. I get the impression that the Father is the one who gives the nod when the time is considered by him to get the green light.
Also, it might be that the option not to do so is also possible.

I don't know myself. I tend to think that it may be just a ploy to keep the peons hopeful while the leaders get about the business of fulfilling their own agenda...at least I keep that in mind as a possibility.

Is it all just myth? I suppose that is up to the individual to decide. Perhaps after another 2000 years of it not happening, it might not even be relevant?

My comment wasn't one of supporting the belief but of showing where there were some factors missing in the argument given and understanding what theophile was saying.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 16 by William] My point ops simply this. Are we to believe that Jesus was entrusted with everything under God and gave his life but was not given the details concerning his own second coming?

[theophile]

[Replying to postroad]

He claimed to be perfectly one with the Father.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. If there is "oneness," then we need to look at the biblical marriage metaphor I think, which is how two become one in the bible.

That is, I would agree that a critical aspect of the relationship between God and Jesus, God and Israel, God and creation, humankind and creation (what have you) is marriage.

(Just as the Father-Son metaphor indicates a critical aspect, so too does marriage.)

So sure, Jesus and God are "one" in the sense of marriage. They have come together in compromise and mutuality. Despite their differences, they have united in serving each other's welfare, purpose, and will.

I'm really not sure what your point is, though.

Does this have anything to do with the meaning of "generation" and the failure of biblical prophecy? Can't wait to hear it...

[William]

[Replying to post 16 by William] My point ops simply this. Are we to believe that Jesus was entrusted with everything under God and gave his life but was not given the details concerning his own second coming?

I would say the answer to your question (as stated) is that 'we' have choices as to what 'we' believe or do not believe.

For you, the answer would appear to be 'no'. (correct me if I am wrong in that.)

For 'me' the answer [in relation to the whole story] is that the Father did not know at the time Jesus spoke about the event.

This is because I think of the Father and of the OT GOD as being the same.

'The Father' is metaphor for a new way of approaching the idea of the OT idea of GOD.
For me, there is also 'The Mother' who is largely hidden from human awareness as per biblical references.

The OT idea of GOD is in the Master/Lord.

For me the beings reported in the bible doing the 'work of GOD' were all of the same family species, all representative of 'The Master/Lord.'

The idea in Jesus was to take this concept of 'Master/Lord' GOD and tweak it as a means of encouraging humans to look at things another way - because humans had not responded to the 'Master/Lord' idea in ways which were helpful to their collective evolution as a species.

With the new and improved idea, the ripple effect meant that humans at least now had the chance to survive the evil actions predominantly happening but such a thing also required time to unfold in said new direction.

[Mithrae]

Looking over the text and no internal evidence of anything other than a prophecy addressed to the Disciples and their generation. He even promises they will survive unscathed.

Luke 21:10-32New International Version (NIV)

10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.�

29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

You have just provided very strong internal evidence that this wasn't addressed to Jesus' disciples.

Contrasted with the blue verse above, Mark and Matthew both refer to an abomination of desolation in the holy place: They draw the reader's attention (Mark implicitly, and Matthew explicitly) to Daniel's prophecy of 70 'sevens,' which would see all kinds of wonderful stuff happening after a final 'seven' beginning with an anointed one (messiah) being 'cut off' (cf. Daniel 9).

The prophecy also refers to an end of sacrifice and offering, which early Christians readily tied in with the destruction of the temple in 70 CE. Hence Matthew (written later than Mark) is far more explicit in asserting that Jesus' return was imminent: From Mark 9:1 he changes "kingdom of God present with power" to "Son of Man coming in his kingdom" (Mt. 16:28) and even adds a brand new passage saying that the disciples would not have gone through all the towns of Israel before he returned (Mt. 10:23).

Luke was written later, more than seven years after the temple's destruction. Paul's expectations of an imminent return might have been revived by those terrible events, but they were soon diminished. Luke explicitly downplays those expectations, insisting that (Luke 17:20-21) "“The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.�" Likewise in the passage you've quoted, Luke carefully removes the allusion to Daniel, and inserts an indefinite "time of the Gentiles" which will come before the return of Jesus.

The message is clear:
Luke did not assert that Jesus' generation would see his return.

Luke simply didn't know when to expect it. And yet he still used the phrase "this generation." So obviously, to the actual author of at least one gospel (and possibly Mark also) "this generation" did not exclusively mean the generation of Jesus' disciples. Sure it's a strange turn of phrase, but after the transition from Hebrew to Greek to English, basing a theology (or rejection of a theology) on the very specific rendering of a single phrase would be a hallmark fundamentalist ultra-literalism at its worst, even when it's being done by sceptics. Luke obviously didn't see a problem with the phrase, despite having no idea when Jesus would return: So why would anyone else?

Pick on Matthew instead