Contradictory statements

[Zzyzx]

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Contradictory statements

Words attributed to Jesus by Luke and Matthew (whoever they may have been) appear to be contradictory (as well as perhaps irrational -- particularly those cited by "Luke").

Luke 14:26 “If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

Matthew 22:39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets

Love your neighbor – but hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters (and yourself)?

Do unto others (hate them) as you would have them do to you (hate you)?

In psychiatry and psychology, maintaining two or more contradictory statements or positions is viewed as an indication of schizophrenia . . .

Do the statements quoted seem like wise words from a wonderful teacher / leader / preacher?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Not a scholar of Koine Greek or anything, but biblehub does have the following

miseó: to hate
Original Word: μισέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: miseó
Phonetic Spelling: (mis-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I hate, detest
Definition: I hate, detest, love less, esteem less.

So from what I can see, I can't rule out translating Luke 14:26 as 'love less'. Still, a question does remain.
Why do virtually ALL English translations of Luke 14:26 use the phrasing hate? Hate and love less in English do NOT at all mean the same thing. It's a thing apparently in Koine Greek but not in English.

http://biblehub.com/luke/14-26.htm
I even checked out the NWT and it too uses hate (but has a star one can click on that says 'or love less than').
Of the list on Biblehub, only two do not use 'hate', and those two say instead "are not ready to abandon their fathers,"; "doesn't disregard his own father,"
There has to be a reason all the English translations (at least the NWT and those on Biblehub) use 'hate' and not 'love less than'. I love my nephew less than my sisters...but that doesn't mean that I hate him. The phrases are different in English.

[Mithrae]

Do the statements quoted seem like wise words from a wonderful teacher / leader / preacher?

Um... yes?

Heck, I'm no Christian, but one of the things that most commonly pisses me off about ideologues and the movements they create is the sunshine and kittens, everything's gonna be rosy and wonderful bulldust that they often spew. So why not quote the whole passage from Luke that you're attacking?

• Luke 14:25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
  
  28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’
  
  31 “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Under the heel of the Roman Empire it was a hard path that Jesus was advocating; and perhaps even harder in our time and countries of prosperity and plenty.

It's difficult not to respect a fellow who is upfront about that fact... but instead you've gone with selective quotation and accusation of schizophrenia?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 2 by rikuoamero]

You do know the bible wasn't written in English right?

Translators usually defer to the original language when trying to determine the writers intended meaning. So in this, for example it would be "hate as in love less" rather than "hate as in carrying animosity". In short if one is trying to determine what the writer meant, one doesn't ask "What do the words mean in English?" One asks what do the words mean in the original language (in this case Greek) that have subsequently been translated into English*.


* Even in English hate is sometimes used to mean something other than animosity, for example, when a woman exclaims, having given in to that extra piece of cake and ruined her diet "I just hate myself" she is usually not really expressing sustained self loathing and anomisity towards her person. It is, at least colloquially understood to mean she is disappointed in herself.

That said a literal word for word translation in the target language would often make little sense and/or make for awkward reading. The translator's job then is to walk the fine line between staying true to the original, not imposing their a particular reading when the text is ambiguous and having a fluid natural sounding read in the target language. In this case, since the word "hate" in Greek can mean any of the for things, it seems reasonable to not impose a reading and leave the reader to decide which of the four definitions best fits the context.

To illustrate: Let's take the English word "COAT". In English the word "coat" can refer to a Doctor's white protective jacket, a layer of paint, the fur on an animal or a garment worn out of doors. If the word "coat" did exist in the target language but did not carry all four meanings the translators may nevertheless choose to still use the equivalent ("coat") in the target language, especially if which of the four types of "coat" is being referred to (as in " She found a coat").

In a similar way the intended meaning of most words can usually be discerned from context but sometimes a knowledge of the culture, history and meanings of words in the original language can shed light on some seemingly contradictory expressions.


Further Reading: Principles of Bible Translation -Appendix A (NWT)
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1001061201

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 2 by rikuoamero]

You do know the bible wasn't written in English right? Translators usually defer to the original language when trying to determine the writers intended meaning.

...yes? Which is why I talked about Koine Greek, which Luke would have been written in. I gave the Koine Greek word for hate, which according to biblehub, is miseó, and quoted the list of meanings that they give for that Greek word, which include hate, and to love less.
Did you mis-read my comment, JW? I really don't see how any of your criticism applies to my comment. In fact, since you say translators usually defer to the original language, perhaps you can explain for us why it is virtually all English translations (including NWT) say 'to hate', instead of 'to love less'.
I acknowledge my lack of skill in non-English languages. I do not acknowledge though that my noticing that all of these different translations, when writing in English and using the same word, is somehow not meaningful.

UPDATE

In this case, since the word "hate" in Greek can mean any of the for things, it seems reasonable to not impose a reading and leave the reader to decide which of the four definitions best fits the context.

Okay...so back when I was a Christian, should I have hated my family (that is, to feel strong negative emotions towards them) or merely hold them in a lesser regard to Jesus?
I don't know about Greek, perhaps when one reads the text in Greek and thinks in Greek, the actual meaning is clear, I don't know.
But when in English, I don't know what Jesus means (if he even said what Luke reports him as saying).
What about yourself JW? You say that the reader should decide which definition best fits, but are Jehovah's Witnesses granted that freedom? What if Joey JW starts teaching his local gathering of fellow JWs that he thinks the best translation is that one should despise their family members, but the Watchtower says otherwise? What is the Watchtower's stance on what Luke 14:26 is in English? Do you have the freedom to use a different meaning?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

In English the word "coat" can refer to a Doctor's white protective jacket, a layer of paint, the fur on an animal or a garment worn out of doors. If the word "coat" did exist in the target language but did not carry all four meanings the translators may nevertheless choose to still use the equivalent ("coar") in the target language, especially if the which of the four types of "coat" is being referred to.

Okay, so tell me. Auntie Sandra brushed her dog's coat. Read that sentence. Does it mean
A) The fur that naturally grows on the dog
B) A coat bought/made by Sandra that she puts on the dog to wear

You don't know. I don't know. We will probably never know which of the two.

With regard to Luke 14: I don't know what Jesus means. I do not understand Koine Greek, so I am forced by default to use what English translations of the Bible there are. When I go to read them, they virtually all use the translation 'to hate'. I am not aware of a translation that actually prints "to love less than".
There has to be a reason why so many translators use 'hate' and not 'love less'.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

* Even in English hate is sometimes used to mean something other than animosity, for example, when a woman exclaims, having given in to that extra piece of cake and ruined her diet "I just hate myself" she is usually not really expressing sustained self loathing and anomisity towards her person. It is, at least colloquially understood to mean she is disappointed in herself.

Agree. There have been a number of times I've said to friends "Oh God, I hate you now so much!" as an expression of envy, such as when they have the next day off work and I don't.
I still don't see how this helps your position much, or resolves the dilemma I pointed out. We still have to try to figure out what exactly Jesus meant (assuming for the sake of argument he did say the phrase under discussion). How are we to know? He lived and died 2,000 years or so ago.

[JoeyKnothead]

Do the statements quoted seem like wise words from a wonderful teacher / leader / preacher?

Um... yes?

Heck, I'm no Christian, but one of the things that most commonly pisses me off about ideologues and the movements they create is the sunshine and kittens, everything's gonna be rosy and wonderful bulldust that they often spew. So why not quote the whole passage from Luke that you're attacking?

• Luke 14:25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
  
  28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’
  
  31 “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Under the heel of the Roman Empire it was a hard path that Jesus was advocating; and perhaps even harder in our time and countries of prosperity and plenty.

It's difficult not to respect a fellow who is upfront about that fact... but instead you've gone with selective quotation and accusation of schizophrenia?

I'm a bit upset the mods shut me down on bullfeathers, but ain't said 'em nothin' on bulldust, but anyway...

Schizophrenia is the hearing or seeing of stuff that ain't it neither one of it.

The OP questions if some of it is or is it ain't hallucination.

Can Mithraoe establish the data in question is reliable?

Can Mithrae establish the data in question IS, OR IS NOT hallucination?

[Mithrae]

I'm a bit upset the mods shut me down on bullfeathers, but ain't said 'em nothin' on bulldust, but anyway...

Schizophrenia is the hearing or seeing of stuff that ain't it neither one of it.

The OP questions if some of it is or is it ain't hallucination.

Can Mithraoe establish the data in question is reliable?

Can Mithrae establish the data in question IS, OR IS NOT hallucination?

I'm surprised you didn't mention my use of the P word Been away for a while, and standards really do differ from forum to forum. I'm sure I'll get my official warning in time.

The OP did not say anything about hallucination vis a vis schizophrenia, only "maintaining two or more contradictory statements or positions": Yet, as we clearly see, there is nothing inherently contradictory between "love your neighbour" and the in-context warning in Luke 14 that to be a true disciple of Jesus one would have to forsake everything up to and including family ties.

As I said, this seems to distinguish Luke's Jesus from 80 or 90 percent of rabble-rousers and ideologues - effectively discouraging disciples rather than courting all recruits. Unless this Galilean peasant happened to be a student of 20th century psychology, that approach is at least worth a second glance isn't it?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

* Even in English hate is sometimes used to mean something other than animosity, for example, when a woman exclaims, having given in to that extra piece of cake and ruined her diet "I just hate myself" she is usually not really expressing sustained self loathing and anomisity towards her person. It is, at least colloquially understood to mean she is disappointed in herself.

Agree. There have been a number of times I've said to friends "Oh God, I hate you now so much!" as an expression of envy, such as when they have the next day off work and I don't. I still don't see how this helps your position much, or resolves the dilemma I pointed out. We still have to try to figure out what exactly Jesus meant...

Well once we've accepted that "hate" CAN mean other things, look up the various meanings of the word in the Greek language (which has been done) and pick the one that to you, as the reader, believe to be most in harmony with the overall narrative.

You are the reader you are the one that ultimately gets to decide what you believe what you are reading means. I think you have been on this forum long enough to know that not everyone will agree with you, whichever you choose.