Is Pacifism dangerous?

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses claim they are the only "true Christans" because (among other things) they practice pacifism.

So this thread is primarily directed to them, as well as other individual pacificsts.

Consider some of these scenarios.

Does your pacifism extend to disdain for the police, should they drop their weapons and let murderers etc run society?

Are they to be merely "crime monitors" like that guy in the commercial, and should not actually fix crime by arrest at the point of a gun? I e stopping the criminal?

Cop:"There's a crime in progress"..
Concerned bystander:"Why don't you stop it",
Cop:"I'm a Christian, I only report and monitor crime".

Seriously, is that the kind of society you want to live in?

Let's bring it closer to home. If someone were about to shoot your child, and you also had a gun and could easily prevent your child's murder by shooting the criminal, would you?

Would you be disobeying Jesus if you did kill the criminal before he had a chance to kill your child?

If you allow your child to be murdered when you could prevent it, how is that NOT child abuse?

Granted, theoretical and hypothetical, but God forbid, it could happen.

On a larger scale, ISIS is threatening civilization, and Western nations in particular. If you are American, British, Canadian, Western European, Australian etc...should a good Christian allow ISIS to take over, murder, torture and wipe out all Christians? Including Jehovah's Witnesses?

Rather than supporting the military who could defeat them and defend civilized people, including JWs and other Christians?

[JehovahsWitness]

Jehovah's Witnesses claim they are the only "true Christans" because (among other things) they practice pacifism.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not pacifists.

A pasicist believes ALL war is wrong and that is not the case for Jehovah's Witnesses since they support Christ and believe he (Jesus) along with his holy angels will fight the final war of Harmageddon. The official website of Jehovah’s Witnesses contains the following statement

"Early Christians were not pacifists, but they recognized that their prime allegiance was to God. Likewise today, Jehovah’s Witnesses hold firmly to the principle: “You are no part of the world.� (John 15:19)"

So, to clarify, JW believe fighting in human wars is incompatible with the Christian calling to love, even their enemies and remain as they see it, politically neutral. They cannot be classified as strict pacifists, since they are supportive of Jesus fighting for his people.

QUESTION So a Jehovah's Witnesses would not engage in wars even to stop the advance of violent and barbaric groups like ISIS?

Jehovah's Witnesses, as has been explained, believe that engaging in any war is incompatible with being a Christian. They will never compromise on this. It is not however a case of "good men doing nothing" since Jeovah's Witnesses are not inactive in the face of evil. They engage in "spiritual warfare" attempting where possible to change hearts and minds with their message of peace. Ultimately Jehovah's Witnesses believe God's incoming world government backed up by Jesus' Angelic military forces will rid the planet permanently of wickeness. They trust Jehovah to protect them during this interim period filled with so much violence and are firmly resolved NOT to add to it.

QUESTION Does that mean they would not defend their families or would remain inactive to a crime being committed?

No the bible does not indicate a Christian should not take reasonable measures to fight off rape or attack or defend his family but a Jehovah's Witness would not intentionally incur blood guilt by willfully taking a human life.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not carry guns as defensive weapons.

Do Jehovah's Witnesses have distain for those that make alternative life choices?

No, hating people, even in their hearts is against the Jehovah's Witness religion and viewed by them as a most serious sin. JW respect people have the God given right to chose how they live their lives.


Do Jehovah's Witnesses have distain for the Police and and preach that those in police services should not carry arms or seek to enforce the law?

No, Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe that existing human governments and the agencies that represent them, including law enforcement agencies, are in their positions "by God" meaning that God has e permitted them to exist to provide the necessary service of maintaining law and order. Thus for Jehovah’s Witnesses, it is their duty to support them by paying their taxes and according them proper honor.

They believe one's choice of career is entirely personal.


JW






Further Reading: Why Don’t Jehovah’s Witnesses Go to War?
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... go-to-war/

For my earlier post on first century Christians and militarism see link
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 183#788183

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Are they to be merely "crime monitors" like that guy in the commercial,

Care to link to said commercial?

So this thread is primarily directed to them, as well as other individual pacificsts.

As a child, I actually swore an oath of pacifism. I'm not entirely sure whether my then Christian beliefs played a part in my reason to, but given the age at which I did so, which was back when I was a devout believer, it would stand to reason that they did.

Of note, I am no longer a pacifist, but I thought I'd answer this OP since I can say I've been on both sides.

Does your pacifism extend to disdain for the police, should they drop their weapons and let murderers etc run society?

When I was a pacifist, my own thoughts on the subject didn't extend to other people. I was more concerned with how I could do it myself than in whether or not cops should do so.

Cop:"There's a crime in progress"..
Concerned bystander:"Why don't you stop it",
Cop:"I'm a Christian, I only report and monitor crime".

My opinion now is that if a cop said such a thing, they should be fired, since they are receiving a salary in exchange for performing certain duties, among which is arresting suspects, with violence if need be.
I remember a short while ago, I heard (cannot find source on it, so take this with a grain of salt) about a Secret Service agent who said he would not take a bullet for President Trump. My opinion is the same. He draws a salary from public funds and is expected to do his duty. If his opinion of Trump is that low, then resign. Do not admit that you would allow a crime to take place (assassination of a president) simply because you do not like said president.

Seriously, is that the kind of society you want to live in?

Nope, which is why I don't hold to it myself. It is also part of the reason I don't subscribe to the idea that Jesus was this brilliantly wise man of some sort of divine origin. Given that so many people say they do XYZ because Jesus said it. and NOT because XYZ make sense in and of themselves, the thought that a supremely intelligent and wise god/man would say such a thing while knowing how humans would tend to take it doesn't sit well with me.

Let's bring it closer to home. If someone were about to shoot your child, and you also had a gun and could easily prevent your child's murder by shooting the criminal, would you?

Yes.
Back when I was a pacifist? I'm not entirely sure what answer I would have given. I probably would have given some trite answer about 'violence begets violence' or something along those lines.

Would you be disobeying Jesus if you did kill the criminal before he had a chance to kill your child?

In my present state of mind, I do not know, because I hold that no-one really knows what Jesus did and did not command. Jesus may very well never have said anything about turning the other cheek. Even if he did, I do not believe that what Jesus teaches or commands has any authority on me. I view him as just someone from history (if he even existed, I'm still unsure about it).
Back when I was a pacifist, I would have answered yes. I would have believed that Jesus did teach to turn the other cheek, so shooting the criminal would be disobeying him.

If you allow your child to be murdered when you could prevent it, how is that NOT child abuse?

Precisely why I would not worship an all knowing and all powerful god.
My past self though would not be able to counter such a question.

On a larger scale, ISIS is threatening civilization, and Western nations in particular. If you are American, British, Canadian, Western European, Australian etc...should a good Christian allow ISIS to take over, murder, torture and wipe out all Christians? Including Jehovah's Witnesses?

Rather than supporting the military who could defeat them and defend civilized people, including JWs and other Christians?

As a person (note the word I used there, I did not say as a Christian), we should resist ISIS and all other Islamists (separate category from Muslims, Islamists from what I understand are those Muslims who advance Islam politically rather than just spiritually) (along with all others who advance their religion in the political arena).
Back when I was a child, such a question would not have applied to me. There was no ISIS in the 90s. Indeed, I didn't even know about Islam or Muslims until I was in my teens.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses claim they are the only "true Christans" because (among other things) they practice pacifism.

I also want to point out that there are a number of Christian groups who practice pacifism (or did). JWs are not unique in this regard.
from
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/war.php

Christian churches known for their stance against war include:

Moravians (one of the very first Protestant religions dating back to the 1500's)
Brethren (Dunkards) groups, including
Church of the Brethren
Anabaptist groups, including
Mennonites (16th century group numbering 1.5 million)
Hutterites
Schwenkfelders
Bruderhof Communities
Amish (numbering approximately 200,000)
Society of Friends (Quakers)
Doukhobors - 17th century breakaway from Russian Orthodox
Molokans - 17th century breakaway from Russian Orthodox
Some Pentecostal groups such as the Pentecostal Charismatic Peace Fellowship
Seven Day Adventists
Community of Christ
Christadelphians
Worldwide Church of God
Pax Christi - A Catholic peace movement
Fellowship of Reconciliation - A group formed in 1914 to unite pacifists regardless of denomination. All major religious denominations have affiliated associations including
Anglican Pacifist Fellowship
Methodist Peace Fellowship
Baptist Peace Fellowship
Orthodox Peace Fellowship
Lutheran Peace Fellowship
Presbyterian Peace Fellowship

[Youkilledkenny]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses claim they are the only "true Christans" because (among other things) they practice pacifism.

I could claim to have built a bridge made of toothpicks on which you could travel to the moon and back - until that's substantiated.....
Most all Christian sects make claims - many are silly/weird/odd/wrong/true....JWs don't seem different - in that regard at least.
Pacifism is fine so long as that's the society in which one lives and operates. Maybe on some island somewhere - or land locked region - this place exists.
But in reality - the one most JWs share with the rest of us - that's not the case. Pacifism, if they do indeed practice it, makes them an easy target for some. If they're OK with that what's the harm?
Do we really care if a group of people do harm to themselves based on their beliefs - or are harmed by others based on their beliefs if we have no interaction with them?
I'd say most of us don't care other than a passing interest on the news (if that makes it that far).

Maybe pacifism is evolution's way of weeding out the population?

[wiploc]

Is Pacifism dangerous?

Having a few pacifists in your society is like having the control rods extended a small distance into the reactor. It is not inherently dangerous, and could easily help keep something bad from happening.