Biblical scenarios

[agnosticatheist]

I am going to list a few scenarios here. With each scenario, after I have given the scenario, I will ask if it is messed up, and I will ask why you think it is or is not messed up...Please refrain from saying things like "Well God said it so it's ok", "that was a different time", etc. With each of you individually, I will get to that, but for your first post, please just tell me whether you think it is or is not messed up, and why you think it is or is not messed up.

Scenario 1: Someone is accused of a crime. They are presumed guilty until proven innocent. If their innocence is not proved, they are put to death. Is that messed up?

If yes: Why?

If no: Why?

Scenario 2: A woman is brought to her father's door and put to death for a crime that may not even be the fault of her father. Is that messed up?

If yes: Why?

If no: Why?

Scenario 3: A husband claims his wife was not a virgin on their wedding night. If the wife is found to be guilty of the "crime" he is accusing her of, she is put to death. If the husband is found to be guilty of making a false claim, he only has to pay a fine and be whipped. Is that messed up?

If yes: Why?

If no: Why?

Scenario 4: Man A is in a fight with Man B. Man A's wife comes to the rescue of Man A. The wife grabs the testicles of Man B. As a punishment, the wife's hand is cut off. Is that messed up?

If yes: Why?

If no: Why?

Would you be ok with being presumed guilty until proven innocent? Having your daughter brought to your door and put to death when her "crime" may not have even been your fault? Having your hand cut off after you came to the rescue of your husband? Being put to death for committing a less severe crime than the crime of making a false and damaging claim about someone (which got punished with a fine and a whipping)?

Would you be ok with any of your female family members and friends being subjected to all of that? If the answer is no to either or both of those questions, then I ask you why you are ok with women 2,000+ years ok being subjected to all of that? That's the height of hypocrisy, and the antithesis of the spirit behind "do unto others."

It's ok for it to happen to human beings (who have dignity, worth, and basic rights) 2,000+ years ago, but God forbid it happen to you and/or the women you are close to...That's a double standard, and also incredibly insensitive and lacking in empathy on your part.

[agnosticatheist]

This is hilarious. Normally, I have ttruscott and others, but ttruscott in particular, coming out of the woodwork to accuse me of making emotional attacks (which really is just a cover/front/diversion to keep them from having to face up to what the Bible says their God commanded). When I put it like this, they aren't so quick to come out of the woodwork...But so far, nothing.

I mean, come on people. Would you really be ok with your daughter being brought to your door and stoned to death? You know you wouldn't, which is why you Christians who saw this will not answer, because you don't want to have to own up to the fact that the Bible says your God commanded something messed up and unjust like that...Lol

[Zzyzx]

.

. . . which really is just a cover/front/diversion to keep them from having to face up to what the Bible says their God commanded

Bible defenders / worshipers are often VERY creative in excusing atrocities attributed to 'God'.

However, the stories make clear that either the 'God' depicted IS atrocious OR Bible writers falsely depicted the 'God' OR perhaps Bible writers retold folklore tales concocted over decades or centuries.

Why modern people revere such tales and 'Gods' is a bit mysterious -- perhaps attributable to some human emotional needs?

[ttruscott]

This is hilarious. Normally, I have ttruscott and others, but ttruscott in particular, coming out of the woodwork to accuse me of making emotional attacks (which really is just a cover/front/diversion to keep them from having to face up to what the Bible says their God commanded). When I put it like this, they aren't so quick to come out of the woodwork...But so far, nothing.l

Before you get too self adulating and self congratulatory - I've been on business in Mexico for the last 10 days with no proper access to the forums so I took a break. <headshake, facepalm>

[ttruscott]

Is that messed up?

So by disassembling without actually referring to your point you hope to catch up theists in what, hypocrisy?

A mess is created when something that is ordered and functional becomes disordered and less functional. We do not have the full understanding of the pagan society pre-Hebrew, pre-Moses' law but we have (apparently) many references from the ancient Rabbis that the laws were indeed a step up from pagan society with more humane values placed upon losses caused another and also providing greater support for destitute women and children. Thus they were the opposite of being messed up.

From the theological pov that EVERYTHING GOD DECREES AS LAW has only one purpose and that is to bring HIS sinful elect to appreciate the grave evil they have chosen and that their guilt is real so that they may repent and seek redemption, Rom 3:20... through the law we become conscious of our sin.,

coupled with the idea that though each person has their own uniques reasons for rebelling against HIM and becoming sinful, many people share a similar enough attraction to sin that they can be dealt with en mass in a group situation under one law to get those who can to repent.

Thus someone who is seriously addicted to their evil might need a different society to live in and must live under different laws than the person who has little attachment to their sin so is almost ready repent. In this way, the laws and the culture changes over time to accommodate the sins of HIS people while at the same time proving to us that harsh laws and easy laws make no difference in the moral expression of sinners - everyone breaks HIS law that HE gives them, proving they are sinners.

The laws were not given to make the people more happy or more civilized but all law was given to convict them of their sin when they would not obey...Romans 7:7...Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the Law. whether it was in the heat of the moment or by the judgement of human judges holding favourites. A corollary of the inability to keep the law was also to expose those who had no respect for GOD at all within a supposedly GODly society, opening the elect's eyes to the different nature of some of their congregation from themselves.

And since I accept that all HIS interaction with HIS elect is perfectly in accord with their own pre-earth free will decisions about how they wanted to live, I do not put my feelings of dismay at coming under the harshness of HIS law above HIS law...iow, my feelings are not the definition of the righteousness of GOD's law.

[bluethread]

It's ok for it to happen to human beings (who have dignity, worth, and basic rights) 2,000+ years ago, but God forbid it happen to you and/or the women you are close to...That's a double standard, and also incredibly insensitive and lacking in empathy on your part.

[bluethread]

It's ok for it to happen to human beings (who have dignity, worth, and basic rights) 2,000+ years ago, but God forbid it happen to you and/or the women you are close to...That's a double standard, and also incredibly insensitive and lacking in empathy on your part.

Those things are not OK. However, they are not accurate representations of HaTorah either. These scenarios are equivalent to asking a man when he stopped beating his wife. A direct answer accepts the premise as true. The appropriate answer is to address the premise. In these cases presented in the OP, the premise that these are accurate representations of HaTorah is untrue.

[benchwarmer]

It's ok for it to happen to human beings (who have dignity, worth, and basic rights) 2,000+ years ago, but God forbid it happen to you and/or the women you are close to...That's a double standard, and also incredibly insensitive and lacking in empathy on your part.

Those things are not OK. However, they are not accurate representations of HaTorah either. These scenarios are equivalent to asking a man when he stopped beating his wife. A direct answer accepts the premise as true. The appropriate answer is to address the premise. In these cases presented in the OP, the premise that these are accurate representations of HaTorah is untrue.

I'm curious, would you mind picking just one and explaining how it's untrue? Or maybe a link to somewhere you've discussed it before?

I know that the woman coming to her husband's aid was discussed previously as I remember commenting on that one. Was the explanation that it only applied in the one particular case in the story or something along those lines?

It seems to be a common theme that's there's confusion what the god of the Bible's laws actually are. One would think a god would be crystal clear and there would be no need for constant debates. Maybe something else is up, like these are man made laws/stories instead?

[agnosticatheist]

[Replying to ttruscott]

I noticed you had been absent, but then I noticed you had been back to posting...it's all good. On business for your martial arts stuff?

[OnceConvinced]

Scenario 1: Someone is accused of a crime. They are presumed guilty until proven innocent. If their innocence is not proved, they are put to death. Is that messed up?

If yes: Why?

Yes. If someone is to be put to death there should be no doubt about his guilt.

Scenario 2: A woman is brought to her father's door and put to death for a crime that may not even be the fault of her father. Is that messed up?

If yes: Why?

Definitely. No innocent person should be put to death for the acts of another, whether that other person is guilty or not.

Scenario 3: A husband claims his wife was not a virgin on their wedding night. If the wife is found to be guilty of the "crime" he is accusing her of, she is put to death. If the husband is found to be guilty of making a false claim, he only has to pay a fine and be whipped. Is that messed up?

Yes.

I guess the question would be what is worse? Adultery or Lying? I would say Lying would be worse as it has more likelihood of causing harm. I don't think either should get the death penalty though.

In that scenario though, in the bible it is said that even though the man lied, the woman must remain with him until the day he dies. So the woman is put in a worse situation again, being forced to remain in a loveless marriage with a guy who wanted her dead.

Scenario 4: Man A is in a fight with Man B. Man A's wife comes to the rescue of Man A. The wife grabs the testicles of Man B. As a punishment, the wife's hand is cut off. Is that messed up?

If yes: Why?

Definitely. It's sickeningly messed up. The wife was trying to save her husband. Why would it matter that she grabbed this testicles to do it? She had to disable him somehow. Would it be better if she poked his eyes out or worse, killed him?