I wonder whether many of us are being a bit...presumptuous.
It seems a good many arguments are based on highly technical details...details which scholars themselves would regard as "tenuous".
I give an example: A lot of arguments in this forum bring up dates for the biblical documents. For instance, one argument I just read was entirely based on the assumption that the fourth gospel was written around 110 AD; as he/she said, "most scholars date..."
This brought a laugh from me. "Most scholars...". MOST SCHOLARS!
I have read quite a bit; but by no means do I claim mastery of this issue. However, the scholars that I have read (not on wikepedia, but real books by scholars at big universities: E.P. Sanders; Shaye Cohen; Helmut Koester etc. etc.) all admit that the dating of biblical composition is not an exact science. Every single one admits it is GUESSWORK.
And yet such guesswork makes its way online, and from online to us, the public. And we drink it in as if it were...pardon the pun...gospel.
So a question...
How do we check ourselves against mimicking online claims that we haven't researched? How do we exercise a little "self-consciousness" or even humility when making arguments; how do we ask "wait, do I really know that, say, wikipedia, or, "this blog writer" is claiming, is true; should I look into this a little more"?
Let us ALL be humble
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Re: Let us ALL be humble
Post #11Your comment seemed to infer that it would not happen at all, not that it wouldn't happen very often. Can you confirm then that "conversion" is indeed possible but your point was that it is rare.Divine Insight wrote:Jehovah's Witnesses represent less than 1% of all Christendom. Clearly they aren't convincing very many devout Christians to convert to JW.JehovahsWitness wrote:Well I can't speak for the other religions but it is a demonstrate let fact that "Catholics, a devout Southern Baptists, devout Amish as well as people from any number of religions have, following their contact with Jehovah's Witnesses seen that JWS do indeed have the truth and changed religions.Divine Insight wrote: Do you think that if you put a devout Jehovah's Witness, a devout Catholic, a devout Southern Baptist , and devout Amish, etc, all in a room to discuss Christian apologetics they are going to be able to CONVERT each other. It's highly unlikely.
Indeed most of our "converts" come from people of other faiths, some of whome were quite devout.
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Re: Let us ALL be humble
Post #12That's why I included the word "devout". A person who converts to another faction or religion couldn't have been very "devout" in their original theology.JehovahsWitness wrote: Your comment seemed to infer that it would not happen at all, not that it wouldn't happen very often. Can you confirm then that "conversion" is indeed possible but your point was that it is rare.
Note: Hundreds of thousands of people become Jehovah's Witnesses each year the majority of whome come from other faiths.
I would need to be a complete fool to think that no one ever converts from one religion to another. Surely you aren't suggesting that I'm that ignorant?
By the way, hundreds of thousands of people convert to all manner of different religions and religious factions all the time. I actually know several ex-Jehovah's Witnesses who left JW either for another religious paradigm, or to even become atheists.
So people are leaving Jehovah's Witnesses probably as fast at their are joining. People change their minds all the time about religious beliefs and worldviews.
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Re: Let us ALL be humble
Post #13[Replying to post 12 by Divine Insight]
Well I have met many many individuals who were devout Catholics for example that "converted" to our faith... or is it a case of no true Scotsman/Catholic/Mormon/Atheist ...?
So what part of the above are you presenting to support your point the no devout believer can possibly be converted? Are you saying people change their minds {quote} "all the time" {unquote} but of course none of them could possibly have been devout.
Well I have met many many individuals who were devout Catholics for example that "converted" to our faith... or is it a case of no true Scotsman/Catholic/Mormon/Atheist ...?
No they are not because that would mean our overall numbers would not be increasing. To illustrate if you have a glass of water and pour out its contents as fast as you pour more in the level of water in the glass remains the same. In the same way if people were leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses as fast as others are joining they wouldn't be experiencing growth.Divine Insight wrote:So people are leaving Jehovah's Witnesses probably as fast at their are joining.
Divine Insight wrote: People change their minds all the time about religious beliefs and worldviews.
So what part of the above are you presenting to support your point the no devout believer can possibly be converted? Are you saying people change their minds {quote} "all the time" {unquote} but of course none of them could possibly have been devout.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Let us ALL be humble
Post #14Divine Insight wrote:Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]
No, it's an opinion.There is no question that the Bible is nothing more than superstitious fables and rumors.
That's a given.
One that it seems you "so passionately and tenaciously argue for" on these forums.I did not say they were.Sorry, but the self-contradictions that occur in the Bible are not an opinion. They are provable self-contradictions in logic.
What I was commenting on was not your content but your claim that what you said was "a given".
A given is something there is a general consensus on.
There is no such consensus on the Bible, but instead ongoing debate and clashing opinions.
I did not say that what you posted, including the "a given" observation, "has no validity at all", or "is without merit".What is an "opinion" that has no validity at all is the idea that the Biblical myths could be justified.
My "opinion" on the matter is totally irrelevant. I could have never been born and everything I said in this post would still be TRUE. So to say that this is just my opinion is without merit.
I only said it was "an opinion".
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Re: Let us ALL be humble
Post #15But there actually is a consensus on the Bible. Scientists, historians, and philosophers know that the Bible is nothing more than mythology. Just because there are a large number of uneducated masses who are socially entrapped by these religious cults doesn't give them any credibility.Checkpoint wrote: A given is something there is a general consensus on.
There is no such consensus on the Bible, but instead ongoing debate and clashing opinions.
After all a large part of the argument that Christians often give is that there are more people who believe in Christianity than in any other religion. But this is actually false. There are far more disagreeing sects within Christianity than there is within Islam. So Islam actually has a higher number of people who tend to believe the same things.
Therefore as you can see, consensus doesn't count for much.
Also, when logic is employed consensus isn't required. There is no need to have a consensus on the fact that there can be no rational solution to the square root of 2. That is an easily proven fact. In the same way the Bible can be demonstrated to be false as well. No consensus required. Especially if we take the Bible for what it actually has to say.
For example, the Canaanites were supposed to have rejected God and refused to obey God, yet they were sacrificing their very own babies to God. So clearly they didn't reject God. So it's provable via logic alone that the Bible is false. No opinion required.
The only place opinion comes into the picture is when people start arguing for alternative "interpretations" which really amounts to nothing more than a refusal to confess that the Bible is indeed false as it is actually written.
As soon as you need to start arguing for alternative interpretations you've already conceded that the Bible is nonsense as it is actually written. So we're done at that point. And all Christian apologies are arguments of alternative interpretations. It's really nothing more than a refusal to confess that the Bible is indeed self-contradictory as it is actually written.
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Re: Let us ALL be humble
Post #16Thanks for that confirmation.Divine Insight wrote:But there actually is a consensus on the Bible. Scientists, historians, and philosophers know that the Bible is nothing more than mythology. Just because there are a large number of uneducated masses who are socially entrapped by these religious cults doesn't give them any credibility.Checkpoint wrote: A given is something there is a general consensus on.
There is no such consensus on the Bible, but instead ongoing debate and clashing opinions.
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Re: Let us ALL be humble
Post #17[Replying to post 15 by Divine Insight]
I hear from the theist camp that Abraham's God is of course real and better than the Canaanite's god. After all, he told Abe to stop.
...didn't tell the Canaanites to
I always did find it odd, once I learned about the Canaanites, that they are vilified for being so willing to obey what they believed was their god as to sacrifice their own children to him, while at the same time Abraham is praised...for being so humble as to obey what he (and modern adherents) believed to be his god as to sacrifice his son?For example, the Canaanites were supposed to have rejected God and refused to obey God, yet they were sacrificing their very own babies to God. So clearly they didn't reject God.
I hear from the theist camp that Abraham's God is of course real and better than the Canaanite's god. After all, he told Abe to stop.
...didn't tell the Canaanites to
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Re: Let us ALL be humble
Post #18[Replying to post 7 by JehovahsWitness]
You wrote:
"Well I can't speak for the other religions but it is a demonstrate let fact that Catholics, a devout Southern Baptists, devout Amish as well as people from any number of religions have, following their contact with Jehovah's Witnesses seen that JWS do indeed have the truth and changed religions."
You said "demonstrate let fact" Did you perhaps mean "demonstratable fact"? If this is what you meant please tell us by what authority you make such a claim. I see you've been a member here for over six years. During that time you've probably came in contact with hundreds if not thousands of people of other religions. How many of those have you converted to the JW's? And even if you did convert some it might simply be that they were more gullible than their religion free friends thought they were when they hooked up with mainline Christianity.
Also, I see from your post #2 that you are a stickler for proper research and quite critical of those you judge as careless with their facts, and, I assume, those who just throw something out there without any supporting evidence. So, I know you won't mind telling us from your research (from a source other than the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) what percentage of Catholics, Southern Baptists, devout Amish, and people from any number (we might need that statistic as well) of other religions have, after coming into contact with JW's "see that JW's do indeed have the truth and change religions."
You wrote:
"Well I can't speak for the other religions but it is a demonstrate let fact that Catholics, a devout Southern Baptists, devout Amish as well as people from any number of religions have, following their contact with Jehovah's Witnesses seen that JWS do indeed have the truth and changed religions."
You said "demonstrate let fact" Did you perhaps mean "demonstratable fact"? If this is what you meant please tell us by what authority you make such a claim. I see you've been a member here for over six years. During that time you've probably came in contact with hundreds if not thousands of people of other religions. How many of those have you converted to the JW's? And even if you did convert some it might simply be that they were more gullible than their religion free friends thought they were when they hooked up with mainline Christianity.
Also, I see from your post #2 that you are a stickler for proper research and quite critical of those you judge as careless with their facts, and, I assume, those who just throw something out there without any supporting evidence. So, I know you won't mind telling us from your research (from a source other than the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) what percentage of Catholics, Southern Baptists, devout Amish, and people from any number (we might need that statistic as well) of other religions have, after coming into contact with JW's "see that JW's do indeed have the truth and change religions."
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Re: Let us ALL be humble
Post #19Well, not only that, but we need to realize that this is a monotheistic religion. Therefore the God that the Canaanites were worshiping couldn't be real. Therefore Yahweh, being the only real super-intelligent supreme being would realize that the Canaanites simply aren't understanding their situation. And a truly righteous benevolent God would then stop and make sure that the Canaanites actually do understand what's actually going on. But in the Biblical fables Yahweh doesn't do this.rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 15 by Divine Insight]
I always did find it odd, once I learned about the Canaanites, that they are vilified for being so willing to obey what they believed was their god as to sacrifice their own children to him, while at the same time Abraham is praised...for being so humble as to obey what he (and modern adherents) believed to be his god as to sacrifice his son?For example, the Canaanites were supposed to have rejected God and refused to obey God, yet they were sacrificing their very own babies to God. So clearly they didn't reject God.
I hear from the theist camp that Abraham's God is of course real and better than the Canaanite's god. After all, he told Abe to stop.
...didn't tell the Canaanites to
Therefore we can know with absolute certainty that the fables are false. These tales give themselves away as being clearly false. There's no room left for doubt.
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Re: Let us ALL be humble
Post #20Nah nah.... ! Yes, some books are a tangled mass of bungled timelines, stretched mission length, wishy washy fibs, and manipulated occurrences to fit with prophecies. Very naughty.Divine Insight wrote: The self-contradictions in the Bible are undeniable. In fact, had you read the rest of my post you would see the truth of this in the apologetic arguments offered by Christendom. Even their apologetic arguments reveal that they too recognize the fallacies of these stories even though they refuse to confess to it.
But you can't just chuck out the whole lot, you have to take each book, alone, on its own merits!
There you go again, an agenda fueled rant about 'it's all a fib' or whatever...... imo.There is no more "agenda" required to recognize the fallacies of Hebrew mythology than there is to recognize the fallacies of Greek mythology. No "agenda" is required. In fact, to continually apologize for these obviously self-contradictory fables endless in spite of the failure to make any compelling process is indeed an "agenda".
Ah.... so you'll be having some trouble with me, then, because I don't belong to any Abrahamic religion..... so playing that card with me will lose that 'hand'.Clearly all the disagreeing demonstrations and sects of the Abrahamic religions reveal an extreme "agenda" to support these myths at all cost.
Yeshua BarYosef, the Galilean Eastern Aramaic speaking displaced peasant handworker, who initiated a mission similar to that of John the Baptist, was a real person, who followed a real 11-12 month mission. You can't knock it. You can't disprove it.
Christianity is nothing to do with it..... Yeshua didn't even know that word, nor the name Jesus, but he was real.
Time to separate the facts from the fiction in an academic way........ sledgehammers ain't any good here.