So usually scientists are mocked for evolution because no one has even seen an ape transform into a man.
Though this would be countered by watching caterpillars transform into butterflies, antlions into lacewings, grubs to beetles, tadpoles to frogs, and so on, if science didn't point out to Jews and Christians that these were the same animal.
But if we examine this with the "giving the religious what they want," approach:
Isn't simply learning something an example of evolution? Putting on muscle mass - is that not an evolution, in the broadest sense?
Is not Joe Piscopo a very different animal now than when he was on SNL?
As we learn and grow in response to the environment, are we not evolving exactly as a religious person would say we must, in order for evolution to be true, according to their standards?
Even, in some sense, by scientific standards? Animals have adopted with different characteristic within regions, and remain the same species.
So isn't all of this really, all part of the same picture. Adaptation leads to advantage, advantage leads to acclimatization, acclimatization leads to evolution in the technical sense... but are they really different?
I propose that learning and musculature are both an example of and a result of evolution.
Counters?
Isn't evolution....?
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William
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Post #31
[Replying to post 29 by Joe1950]
The human race is not so sure of itself and some of the clinging to old myths is because it is through old myths that we developed clearer understanding of good and evil activity, and we are not going to let old myths go and embrace science wholeheartedly because we have learned a little bit, not to jump into things without thinking of the consequences.
Old myths of themselves do not create warfare, as far as I can tell. You may have some examples to share on that.
The weapons of war you mention are the creation of scientists and engineers etc and war is politically profitable due to the nature of the present systems of disparity.
If evil were only to be found in the religious sector, then I would happily consider GOD as irreverent. I do not, and for reasons I give oft enough on this board. Evil can be found in the secular sectors of society as well. I consider the financing of NASA for space exploration to be evil in a world where we need the funds to help heal the world. Good people are more interested in seeing investments distributed into projects which will help nurture and maintain the life here on this planet, not in terraforming Mars as some alternate planet for those who can afford to go live there.
So there is a natural enough distrust for the motives of those who use science for profiteering in warfare and space ventures while they also tend to disparage old myths as unnecessary and even competing against their agendas.
The politics of disparity are evil, regardless of whether a god-idea is used to garner support for them or not. It just makes any god-idea used for such purpose, look evil.
Now I am not suggesting that eventually going into space is an evil agenda of itself. Just the way it is being done at present. There are those who have no concern for the lives sacrificed for that agenda. Part of that legacy they will carry with them on their space adventures was that they got there through the death of billions that had been enslaved to their systems and poisoned, abused, mishandled, taken advantage of, kept in poverty, treated unfairly etc ad nauseum, all so that they - the few, could have their private empires/utopias and adventures and in doing so, did not even care if they used GOD as their authority or just plane simply brute force, or coercion, debt etc, as long as they got what they wanted out of life.
While they point the finger at GOD for being the one to blame, for letting them get away with it, if indeed GOD exists.
Truly evil human beings. Even if GOD doesn't exist, they are still evil human beings.
The human race is not so sure of itself and some of the clinging to old myths is because it is through old myths that we developed clearer understanding of good and evil activity, and we are not going to let old myths go and embrace science wholeheartedly because we have learned a little bit, not to jump into things without thinking of the consequences.
Old myths of themselves do not create warfare, as far as I can tell. You may have some examples to share on that.
The weapons of war you mention are the creation of scientists and engineers etc and war is politically profitable due to the nature of the present systems of disparity.
If evil were only to be found in the religious sector, then I would happily consider GOD as irreverent. I do not, and for reasons I give oft enough on this board. Evil can be found in the secular sectors of society as well. I consider the financing of NASA for space exploration to be evil in a world where we need the funds to help heal the world. Good people are more interested in seeing investments distributed into projects which will help nurture and maintain the life here on this planet, not in terraforming Mars as some alternate planet for those who can afford to go live there.
So there is a natural enough distrust for the motives of those who use science for profiteering in warfare and space ventures while they also tend to disparage old myths as unnecessary and even competing against their agendas.
The politics of disparity are evil, regardless of whether a god-idea is used to garner support for them or not. It just makes any god-idea used for such purpose, look evil.
Now I am not suggesting that eventually going into space is an evil agenda of itself. Just the way it is being done at present. There are those who have no concern for the lives sacrificed for that agenda. Part of that legacy they will carry with them on their space adventures was that they got there through the death of billions that had been enslaved to their systems and poisoned, abused, mishandled, taken advantage of, kept in poverty, treated unfairly etc ad nauseum, all so that they - the few, could have their private empires/utopias and adventures and in doing so, did not even care if they used GOD as their authority or just plane simply brute force, or coercion, debt etc, as long as they got what they wanted out of life.
While they point the finger at GOD for being the one to blame, for letting them get away with it, if indeed GOD exists.
Truly evil human beings. Even if GOD doesn't exist, they are still evil human beings.
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Joe1950
Post #32
[Replying to post 31 by William]
Mythology serves a purpose.It is to teach whatever lessons the particular society wants to teach to the young. In the pre-scientific world those myths extended into adulthood and answered the adults considered important. Like, what is the relationship of the sun and earth. However, as different societies gained more scientific knowledge the myths were no longer necessary for adults. Scientific explanations take precedence. We still allow kids to believe in Santa because he is a nice model for charity. But when kids get older they understand that the laws of physics make Santa impossible. But that does not mean the idea of charity is no longer a valid one.
Regarding mythology and warfare. I do not think myths "create" warfare. But they can and are used to justify warfare. A good example would be the Greeks who went to war to honor gods. Or Americans who go to war to honor the myth that they are spreading "freedom". Not a real cause, as such.
Regarding the role of technology I have a more pessimistic view. Every technological advance is immediately used to create more efficient weapons of war. Gunpowder was used to create muskets and cannons and guns. More efficient use of metals produced better metal weapons. All the war up to the splitting of the atom we have seen that technology is (to excuse the obvious analogy) two headed sword. I think of some of the traditional tribal warfare in parts of Africa. 300 years ago when this warfare occurred people could run away. Children could run away. Today, because of the AK-47 and other lightweight weapons people can be killed at a distance and in great numbers. And even children can wield weapons of death.
How does religion fit in. Well, apart from ethnicity and nationalism, religious differences have been the primary reasons for killing humans. The Jews killed plenty of other groups in the OT. Christians have a long history of killing those who had different beliefs, especially in Africa and North and South America.
Islam was actually spread throughout North Africa and the Middle East by violence.
When it comes to warfare it can be argued that religion is not a cause in some cases, but rather an excuse used by tyrants. I see that.
But in many cases religious teachings and preachings have been responsible for incredible cruelty to those of a different faith. the Inquisition. the Holocaust. The Armenian genocide. The Bosnian war. The cutting off of hands and other mutilations demanded in Wahabi Islam. The list goes on and on. Once a person or group become convinced that they alone have a direct line to some (imaginary) supreme deity, it gives them the "right" do perform hideous acts on others in the name of their god, whether it be Allah or Yahweh or Jesus or the multitude of others.
I agree with you that our resources, especially in the USA, have been squandered and continue to be squandered on violence as opposed to helping people. Under the current administration this will be a real catastrophe, especially for the environment and the poor. But I think your use of space exploration may not be the best example. I do believe that studies have shown that the research necessary to safely venture into space has led to a multitude of offshoots which have improve life here on Earth.
I often think of what a different world it would be if all of the manpower, intellect, metal, gas, oil, etc, used for warfare in the last 120 years had instead been used to produce food, shelter , clothing, new forms of energy. It is mind boggling.
Mythology serves a purpose.It is to teach whatever lessons the particular society wants to teach to the young. In the pre-scientific world those myths extended into adulthood and answered the adults considered important. Like, what is the relationship of the sun and earth. However, as different societies gained more scientific knowledge the myths were no longer necessary for adults. Scientific explanations take precedence. We still allow kids to believe in Santa because he is a nice model for charity. But when kids get older they understand that the laws of physics make Santa impossible. But that does not mean the idea of charity is no longer a valid one.
Regarding mythology and warfare. I do not think myths "create" warfare. But they can and are used to justify warfare. A good example would be the Greeks who went to war to honor gods. Or Americans who go to war to honor the myth that they are spreading "freedom". Not a real cause, as such.
Regarding the role of technology I have a more pessimistic view. Every technological advance is immediately used to create more efficient weapons of war. Gunpowder was used to create muskets and cannons and guns. More efficient use of metals produced better metal weapons. All the war up to the splitting of the atom we have seen that technology is (to excuse the obvious analogy) two headed sword. I think of some of the traditional tribal warfare in parts of Africa. 300 years ago when this warfare occurred people could run away. Children could run away. Today, because of the AK-47 and other lightweight weapons people can be killed at a distance and in great numbers. And even children can wield weapons of death.
How does religion fit in. Well, apart from ethnicity and nationalism, religious differences have been the primary reasons for killing humans. The Jews killed plenty of other groups in the OT. Christians have a long history of killing those who had different beliefs, especially in Africa and North and South America.
Islam was actually spread throughout North Africa and the Middle East by violence.
When it comes to warfare it can be argued that religion is not a cause in some cases, but rather an excuse used by tyrants. I see that.
But in many cases religious teachings and preachings have been responsible for incredible cruelty to those of a different faith. the Inquisition. the Holocaust. The Armenian genocide. The Bosnian war. The cutting off of hands and other mutilations demanded in Wahabi Islam. The list goes on and on. Once a person or group become convinced that they alone have a direct line to some (imaginary) supreme deity, it gives them the "right" do perform hideous acts on others in the name of their god, whether it be Allah or Yahweh or Jesus or the multitude of others.
I agree with you that our resources, especially in the USA, have been squandered and continue to be squandered on violence as opposed to helping people. Under the current administration this will be a real catastrophe, especially for the environment and the poor. But I think your use of space exploration may not be the best example. I do believe that studies have shown that the research necessary to safely venture into space has led to a multitude of offshoots which have improve life here on Earth.
I often think of what a different world it would be if all of the manpower, intellect, metal, gas, oil, etc, used for warfare in the last 120 years had instead been used to produce food, shelter , clothing, new forms of energy. It is mind boggling.
