What better way to disprove the Bible

[Willum]

Givens:
Rome in Jesus time was a divine monarchy, ruled by the demi-god Tiberius Caesar, in the name of his father, who was a God, Caesar Augustus.
These two were empowered by the all-powerful Jove, aka Zeus, Jupiter, etc..
The coins used to pay Roman tax had "The God Augustus," or "Tiberius, son of the God Augustus" stamped right on them.

To give heed to false gods, is against the commandments, a sin and blasphemy, and it would be better to die than to do so.

Jesus said, within a short distance of temples raised to the Gods Jupiter and Augustus (where taxes were paid),

Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

Essentially saying pay to one god, Caesar, his tithes, and to the other god, Theos, his tithes.

Also -

Romans 13:1 "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God."

Proposition:

However, anyone worshiping God, would be blaspheming by either respecting a pagan government, or paying tax to a different god.

How is it possible to rectify the blasphemies perpetrated and encouraged by the Christian spokesperson against his father?

Even touching the coins to pay Caesars' taxes would be blasphemy.

Is there some scripture that clarifies this? Is there anything other then denials and opinions that this is not the case?

[Willum]

[Replying to bluethread]

Sheesh, no that's not unclean - here's and example:

“On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness� (Zech 13:1)

Were one to touch, nay, employ, a coin declaring the Godhead of a man, and then use it to pay royalties to him, this would be a blasphemy.

I'll break it down for you: You want something from Yahwey, you sacrifice ram. Venus, doves, Caesar, gold with his holy name on it. Touching something unclean makes you unclean, doing it deliberately is a sin.

I can't believe I am having this conversation. Do you really believe Jesus saying "do what another god desires," is OK?

[Divine Insight]

I think this is what demonstrates the extreme fallacy of the Biblical scriptures.

Or the extreme fallacy of your interpretation of the Biblical scriptures. Close call? Not so much.

My interpretation cannot be wrong because I asked the Holy Spirit of God to guide me in my understanding of scriptures. Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit of God is untrustworthy and cannot be trusted to reveal to me the truth?

Now of course, us long-time members of DC'n'R will just say to ourselves "DI is a non-believer, he didn't really ask God, he didn't really get a reply, or wasn't guided".
Thing is...when it comes to debate on this website...we actually CANNOT say that. After all...how many times have I debated with someone on this site who claims Divine Wisdom to back them up? How many site members claim to actually hear God/Jesus/Whatever and are serious about it? Can they chime in and say "Uh-uh, DI! God didn't say anything like that!"?

I'm just going to kick back and wait to see the, ahem, 'rebutalls' to DI.

I'll be glad to add some clarification here.

To begin with I'm not now, nor was I ever an "Atheist". In fact, today I technically define myself as being an "Intellectual Agnostic" (simply meaning that I confess to not having sufficient knowledge to say conclusively whether a God might or might not exist). I confess to this myself, to the world, and to any Gods that might exist. And I hold that this is the absolute TRUTH. Therefore I can't imagine any decent God who values truth to be upset about me telling the truth and standing by it.

Secondly I define myself as an "Intuitive Mystic". This is to say that intuitively I simply feel that something mystical is going on. I can't prove it technically, but I can and do acknowledge this intuitive feeling. I also can't intellectually comprehend a purely material universe that just accidentally happens to BOTH exist, AND coincidentally just happen to evolve into living sentient beings. So my intuition that something "mystical" or "magical" is going on is very STRONG.

Of course, this doesn't make it so. But none the less this is my position which I have held for my entire life without exception. There was never a time in my entire life where I could "see" the universe as being nothing more than a mere materialistic accident. And I've really tried hard to imagine the world being that. It's extremely difficult for me to to do.

Moving Forward:

You posted:

Now of course, us long-time members of DC'n'R will just say to ourselves "DI is a non-believer, he didn't really ask God, he didn't really get a reply, or wasn't guided".

You seem to have forgotten (or never knew?) that I was once a "believing" Christian. I believed in both the God of the Bible and in Jesus. So your statement above is totally false (even if you intended this as just general rhetoric or sarcasm)

I did ask God to give me the wisdom and understanding of his word in the Bible through his Holy Spirit. And I even asked this in "Jesus Name". Jesus cannot tell a lie, and Jesus said:

John.14:13-14 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Therefore according to Gospels I had to have been given divine insight from the Holy Spirit of God because otherwise Jesus would be a liar and we can't have that.

In fact, at the time I actually believed this and my eyes were indeed OPEN to the fact that the Bible is filled with extreme self-contradictions, immoral principles and outright lies. I "felt" the Holy Spirit of God telling me to dump the Bible and move on with my life. So I can't even say that Jesus lied. Perhaps I was given what I had asked for?

The Holy Spirit of God continued to guide me throughout my life and eventually led me to Buddhism and then to Wicca. And now I realize that God is actually a Goddess.

So I am being guided by the Holy Spirit of God. And that has to be true unless Jesus was a liar.

Of course, I reserve the right to continue to hold up my ultimate truth of agnosticism. For all I know there is no God and my feelings on the matter are nothing more than emotional nonsense.

None the less if Jesus is real, then the Holy Spirit has to be guiding me. Because Jesus can't be a liar, remember?

Or it could be that Jesus was a loser and only the Holy Spirit is real.

In any case, no one can say that I'm not being guided by the Holy Spirit of reality.

I can make religious claims just like anyone else. Especially if all that is required that I have faith that they are true. And I do. I believe the Goddess of Wicca ultimately led me to Her. But I can't prove it intellectually so don't ask me to try. It could be just wishful thinking on my part. I can't prove otherwise.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 12 by Divine Insight]

To begin with I'm not now, nor was I ever an "Atheist". In fact, today I technically define myself as being an "Intellectual Agnostic" (simply meaning that I confess to not having sufficient knowledge to say conclusively whether a God might or might not exist).

...didn't call you that, mate. I thought you might have issues with the word atheist, so I used the word non-believer on purpose. As in, you do not have the belief (right now).

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

WHY are you perpetually asking ME to tell YOU about YOUR religion?

I'm not asking you about my religion, I'm asking you to provide some evidence to support your claims. My understanding is this is standard in debating forums.

Anything unfit to worship God made one unclean. Check your Leviticus and more.

Where specifically (chapter and verse) is there anything in Leviticus, to support your point?

Thanks

JW

[Willum]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Leviticus 5.1-7

[JehovahsWitness]

However, anyone worshiping God, would be blaspheming by either respecting a pagan government, or paying tax to a different god. [...] Even touching the coins to pay Caesars' taxes would be blasphemy.

When asked for scriptural support the following was provided as evidence.

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Leviticus 5.1-7

SIN OFFERINGS (Leviticus 5:1-7)

Verse 1: False testimony pronounced evil (ie it incurred guilt not ceremonial uncleaness)
Verse 2: Ceremonial Uncleaness* "touches an unclean thing" [dead body, carcasses of an animal]
Verse 3: "touching person who themselves had previously become "unclean"* (see above)
Verse 4: Not honoring oaths a sin (ie it incurred guilt not ceremonial uncleaness)

*Uncleaness: There were several prescribed ways a person could become unclean, this verse deals with two of them, others included contact with suspected leprosy, contact with semen or menstral blood, childbirth ... Although the things that rendered a person unclean were fairly extensive, Contact with foreign coins or currency was never prescribed as one of the things that rendered a person unclean and was never considered blasphemy under any law whatsoever.


JW

[bluethread]

[Replying to bluethread]

Sheesh, no that's not unclean - here's and example:

“On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness� (Zech 13:1)

An example of what? That Adonai will cleans the unclean. Sure, that is what the mikvah is all about. Yes, “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,�. However what does that have to do with paying taxes with the coin of the realm?

Were one to touch, nay, employ, a coin declaring the Godhead of a man, and then use it to pay royalties to him, this would be a blasphemy.

Where is this written? This is a rabbinic fence, not Torah.

I'll break it down for you: You want something from Yahwey, you sacrifice ram. Venus, doves, Caesar, gold with his holy name on it. Touching something unclean makes you unclean, doing it deliberately is a sin.

Unclean for what purpose? Pork is unclean, but touching a pig is not.

I can't believe I am having this conversation. Do you really believe Jesus saying "do what another god desires," is OK?

No, I believe that he is saying that Caesar is not a deity and if you choose to be part of the Roman economy, you use the Roman coins. However, that is not appropriate for the temple or your service to Adonai.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 17 by bluethread]

So, your counter-argument is that you don't understand the Bible?
That doesn't work for me.
That you can touch pork without becoming unclean, but eating it makes you unclean is defined. Touching a leper... different things are sins, YOU DON'T GET TO CHOOSE.

Where is it written?

"2. Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Why didn't you cite my latest invocation of Leviticus? Inconvenient? It answered your objection?

The Roman economy was a divinely inspired economy. Fueled by gold and copper coins proclaiming it's divinity. You can't choose to believe Caesar wasn't divine. He was canonized, worshiped, and had a temple (where tithes were collected) near where Jesus preached. Imagine Jesus pointing at Caesar/Joves temple as he made his famous "Render speech." If you were Greek, you'd think it was a compromise, if you were a Jew, you'd scream for his blood.

And that is exactly what happened!

You can't claim it was OK, because he was a "false," god, because according to scripture, they are all false gods, and to put a false god before the real god... tsk, tsk.

[Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]

Contact with gold or copper would have no such proscriptions, of course you are right. Contact with currency that proclaimed the divinity of a mortal man, and paying it to him fulfilling that worship, would definitely be blasphemy.

You seem to be not reading my posts: If you wished to worship Yahweh or Jove, you sacridice a ram, that's what those gods say they want. If you wish Venus' blessing, you sacrifice doves.

If you wish the divine Caesar's blessing; roads, military protection, food in winter and drought, water and sanitation, and so on, then you drop coins proclaiming his divinity into his temples, or pay his tax (tithe - same word in Latin) collectors, (and Jesus said "don't molest them, as well!), because that is what that god wanted.

It really isn't complicated.

Where is this written? This is a rabbinic fence, not Torah.

The second commandment.
It really isn't complicated.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 18 by Willum]

If you wish the divine Caesar's blessing; roads, military protection, food in winter and drought,

...people wanted a drought?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]

Contact with gold or copper would have no such proscriptions, of course you are right. Contact with currency that proclaimed the divinity of a mortal man, and paying it to him fulfilling that worship, would definitely be blasphemy.

You have said this several times but unfortunately you have yet to prove your point with scripture. The passages you provided do not actually support what you are saying, they don't even mention blasphemy all. So forgive me for not giving your argument any credence, but as it stands it's just opinion and not a particularly logical one at that.

Do you a have any references so support your view?