Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

[dio9]

Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Point being, Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish expectation for the Messiah. The Christian Christ fulfilled a different role as the sacrificial savior. How do we bridge our Christian Christ with Jewish Jesus?

Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?

[Elijah John]

And so I ask you, could both have simply been insurrectionists against the Priesthood, standing for the return of the old laws, yet not strongly against Roman domination? Would you see this mindset as that of a Messiah?

Messiah being Yahweh's agent for intervention, then yes, Jesus may well have seen himself that way.

But I don't think anything he did or likely said supports the notion that he was to die to "pay for" the sins of humanity.

And the roles of apocalyptic prophet and Messiah could well be overlapping roles, no? The difference being that it was the Messiah who was to be installed as God's righteous and eternal King.

And the apocalyptic prophet's role to call people to repentance, before that momentous event.

Both Jesus and John seem to have undertaken the prophet's role, and time will tell if Jesus will be the Messiah, as he did not fulfill Messianic expectations the "first time around".

And yes, I think they could have both been insurrectionists against the corrupt Priesthood. But also against Roman dominion.

I don't think it was an "either/or".

Both Jesus and John preached direct access to God, bypassing the necessity of the bloody Temple, which was supported by the Romans.

And that was subversive to both Temple authority AND Rome.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 27 by Elijah John]
"I hope I answered clearly?"

not exactly, who do you think Jesus thought he was? Jewish messiah, Christian Christ, or non of the above?

You seemed to have misquoted me. It was "Old Badger" who said "I hope I answered clearly", not me.

But to answer clearly, I doubt very much Yahshua of Nazareth thought of himself as the Messiah, the way Christians think of the Christ.

ie The one who was to die in order to "pay for" the sins of humanity.

He may well have thought of himself as the Jewish Messiah, but he did not fulfill Messianic expectations.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 32 by Elijah John]

sorry; right now I'm thinking Jesus thought of himself as non of the above.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 32 by Elijah John]

"He may well have thought of himself as the Jewish Messiah, but he did not fulfill Messianic expectations."

'He came to his own and his own received Him not,
but to those who received Him
to them gave He power to become the sons of God'.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 32 by Elijah John]

"He may well have thought of himself as the Jewish Messiah, but he did not fulfill Messianic expectations."

'He came to his own and his own received Him not,
but to those who received Him
to them gave He power to become the sons of God'.

If we define the mission of the Messiah as of giving the "power to become the sons of God". I would say he is successful , if believers do it, unfortunately I don't think most Christians dare to think of themselves as sons of God. In effect we make him the Messiah by fulfilling this charge, being sons of God. And wouldn't sons of God naturally live in the kingdom heaven?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 5 by ttruscott]




[center]
Jesus was not a Christian, the authors of the Gospels probably were[/center]

Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?

Some contend that John 8:58 "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" implies He did.

Well, maybe the CHRISTIAN authors of the passage did. Maybe that's why they wrote it that way. Do we know why they wrote it that way? I say "they" .. but of course I have NO idea home many Greek speaking ultra literate writers there were.. Might have BEEN just one. Like a Greek Shakespeare. Or, it could have been a committee.

Hard to tell... so far, that's lost to history.


But JESUS was not a Christian, as far as I know.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 8 by Willum]

Playing one logic against another may help you in a court of law - however, in the eyes of God, who would see the truth, all of these would not fly.

So whats the point of trying to make sense at all?

Go ahead, say ANYTHING that you want.
We wont expect you to make sense.

[JehovahsWitness]

And wouldn't sons of God naturally live in the kingdom heaven?

What is God's kingdom?

[Blastcat]

And wouldn't sons of God naturally live in the kingdom heaven?

What is God's kingdom?

Isn't it a hall?

[bluethread]

[Replying to bluethread]

You arguments boil down to: Reality doesn't matter.
Can you quote the verse where it says that his mother can grant him "Jewishness?" Which verse? I think it's a modern invention. Can you show any case where human genealogy overcomes divine genealogy? Or any reason to believe it?

There is no Torah method of determining who is and is not a genetic Jew. According to HaTorah, citizenship in Israel is based on acceptance of the covenant, not on genetics. Hereditary requirements are rabbinic. That might be why Matthew 1 delineates Yoseph's genealogy and Mark 3 delineates Myriam's genealogy. Ancient rabbinics indicated paternity as a prime indicator, but modern rabbinics have relied on maternity(mitochondrial DNA) as the prime indicator. By the way, what is "divine genealogy"? Is it based on divine genetics, whatever that is.

Nebuchadnezzar, a real human being, bragged he ended the line of David.

Samuel thought that he had ended the line of the Agagites. Clinton said that the age of big government was over. National leaders say many things, that does not make them true.

If Jesus was indeed a bastard, how was due process relevant? If God can see what no one else, but those who can read the Bible? How is what men perceive to to a lie, holy?

Due process is necessary for US to determine if Yeshua's situation indeed made him a mazer.

If you desire to ignore Jesus possible mortal father, unlawful, and there is no proposed Jewish or Biblical option,, you really need to propose a better alternative:

There are two options: History's, which as every other person ever born, claims, that Jesus' father was a mortal Roman soldier.
or the son of God.

You have to have it one way or the other, or provide us some reason to believe otherwise. The most likely alternative, is Jesus father (if he even existed), was mortal, and if mortal, there is only one mortal who has been named as the father, Panthera.

No, another possibility is that Myriam and Yoseph jumped the gun and had sex while the were engaged. Now, whether that or some asexual miracle makes Yeshua a mamzer is up for debate. Regarding the Panthera theory, that is based on the lost writings of Celsus, which we only know about, because Origen wrote that they were bogus. It is not true that "every other person ever born, claims, that Jesus' father was a mortal Roman soldier." Raymond E. Brown, Marcus J. Borg and John Dominic Crossan, who question the virgin birth, all agree with Origen that there is very little historical evidence supporting the Panthera theory.

Nothing he taught violated the Torah? venerating the divine pagan monarchy of Rome violates the Torah. And then you have that Sadducee were pagan themselves. Then there is release from proscriptions such as eating pork, and so on. In fact the whole Jesus paradigm, is against the Torah, or at least not a part of it.

Yeshua did not venerate "the divine pagan monarchy of Rome". He just said that it was acceptable to use roman coins to pay roman taxes. He also did not say that it was ok to eat pork. In addition, the Sadducees were not pagan. According to Josephus, the Sadducees believed that: there is no fate, Adonai does not commit evil, "man has the free choice of good or evil", there is no afterlife, and there are no rewards or penalties after death. Though I personally do not hold those beliefs, they are not violations of HaTorah.

You will have to explain how God is fooled by what can be proven in a court of law, especially since, everyone in modern Christiandom, knows the real story.

So, I am afraid, in no way can Jesus be considered Jewish, unless you can show he was conceived lawfully.

I am afraid you are up against the problem that the people who wrote the Bible, didn't understand Jewish culture completely.

This is why Christianity makes sense to gentiles,but not to Jews.

Adonai is not fooled by what happens in a court of law, however, we are required to require due process in the evaluation of violations of HaTorah. Also, last time I checked it is not up to Christiandom to determine who is and is not a Jew. Third, being considered one of Adonai's people is not based on heredity, it is based on accepting the Covenant. Fourth, the Tanach was written by Jews, and with one or two possible exceptions, the Apostolic Writings were written Jewish followers of Yeshua, who is Jewish.

I will give you this, however, most of Christianity make more since to gentiles and not to Jews, because most Christianity does not look at the Scriptures in the proper historical, grammatical and/or cultural contexts.