A non-violent, non-angry take on why Jesus had to die

[sleepthroughthestatic]

I'm slowly working through my thoughts on this topic. Any feedback or criticism would be appreciated, from all walks of faith (or lack thereof).

Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

Jesus came to reveal to the world exactly what God is like.
John 17:25-26: "Father, I showed the world what you are like". Jesus is the "exact imprint of God's nature" (Heb 1:3).

What this means is that Jesus revealed through his life, death, and resurrection EXACTLY what God is like, has always been like, and always will be like--for His moral character is unchanging (James 1:17).

What changes EVERYTHING is our perception of who God is, and how God relates to us. If we have a bad idea of God, it is going to bear bad fruit. Judging from the Old Testament, we had a lot of bad ideas about who God is, and it bore a lot of bad fruit (such as the Canaanite massacres). Jesus was the messenger that needed to clear up these depictions of God (Mal 3:1-4).

The cross is a message that reveals that God is unconditional love, and we relate to God by participating in and embodying His love. From this, all of our salvation flows. Nothing metaphysical needed to happen.

1. Jesus died for our sins.

Jesus did not die for our sins in the sense that God was holding them against us, and so blood was necessary to appease God. Jesus died for our sins because We THOUGHT God holds our sins against us (see Deut 28), and Jesus revealed with absolute clarity that this is NOT the case and never has been the case!

We see Jesus being mocked, tortured, and killed by His worst enemies, and Jesus still says "Father, forgive them". Humanity at it's absolute worst, killing God incarnate, was freely forgiven without any merit on their behalf. If God forgives that, then we can know with absolute clarity there is nothing that God has not already forgiven.

So we see that Jesus defeated our self-condemnation, and our picture of a God that holds sin against us and demands retribution! Jesus did indeed die for our sins!

2. Jesus defeated the Bible and religion.

Jesus broke Sabbath (John 5:18). Scripture says Sabbath breakers are guilty and must be put to death (Exodus 31:14-15). Yet we also know Jesus was actually innocent (Luke 23:41) We see that Jesus was simultaneously GUILTY in the eyes of Scripture, but INNOCENT in the eyes of God.

Jesus' death was proof that religion divorced from reason and empathy can actually kill the innocent son of God. The Pharisees were genuinely following Scripture in their murder of Jesus. We do the same thing today, using Scripture to kill God's purposes.

3. Jesus' death has set humanity on a trajectory that will eventually lead to our salvation

The more people who embody God's love revealed on the cross, and pursue this showing of love with the abandon that Jesus did, the less we will continue to self-destruct as a species. If one day "the whole earth will have knowledge of God" (Hab 2:14), and the knowledge of God is love as shown on the cross, then we will stop killing each other through warfare and hurting ourselves through our ignorance and wickedness. This may actually fulfill the evolutionary process, and we will be a much fitter species that has the capacity to survive (otherwise we may actually completely destroy ourselves with warfare).

5. Jesus defeated our hopelessness in the midst of suffering

We see a God that is not alien to our suffering, and actively enters into it on our behalf. God is with us in our darkest times, and through the resurrection, we have the hope that God will ultimately defeat out suffering.

4. Jesus defeated the Problem of Evil.

In addition to entering into suffering, we also see in Jesus' ministry that Jesus always treated evil as the work of Satan, not of God. He ALWAYS did everything in his ability to combat the evil. Therefore, we can be confident that God is always doing everything within His ability to defeat the work of Satan, and never sits back and idly allows it. Which means God never causes or allows evil, which means God is not omnipotent (at least in the way we usually define the word).

5. Jesus defeated other bad theology

The Bible frequently depicts those who do good as being rewarded by God, and those who do evil as being punished--no exceptions (Deut 28). The Old Testament wrestles with this idea, and occasionally protests it (several Psalms, Job, Ecclesiastes). You can imagine how toxic this belief was, as anyone who was the victim of suffering not only was enduring their suffering, but everyone around them thought they were justly being punished by God because they did something evil! Jesus blew up this toxic idea, by showing that following God can make you die the death of a criminal.

5. Jesus defeated death

Jesus revealed that we need not fear death in our pursuit of making heaven on earth, because as revealed by the resurrection, death is temporary. This is very empowering for activism. This also defeated our anxiety about death, which can be unhealthy.

6. Jesus defeated violence.

We see that God would rather die on the behalf of others, than to kill. And we are called to do the same.

7. Jesus defeated the irrational slaughter of animals and religious rituals to appease God

I don't think God enjoyed watching a bunch of animals get killed because we thought we needed to shed blood to appease to Him (Psalm 50:13-14). Beyond that though, was the deeper problem of us thinking we needed to do the "right things" to be in God's presence. This was a barrier that blocked us from experiencing God in the relational way God desires.
And that's all I've got for now. I'll keep thinking. Feel free to add!

[Pierac]

[Replying to sleepthroughthestatic]

Jesus already asked this question...

Mat 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

We have seen the reply!



Paul

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to sleepthroughthestatic]

Jesus already asked this question...

Mat 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

We have seen the reply!



Paul

What was it, and when was it?

[Pierac]

[Replying to sleepthroughthestatic]

Jesus already asked this question...

Mat 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

We have seen the reply!



Paul

What was it, and when was it?

Mat 26:42 He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."



Really... you need to ask?


Paul

[marco]

Mat 26:42 He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."

Really... you need to ask?

There is a conclusion, from Christ's private reflections, but no reply. Christ took silence to mean answer.

As to the plan that Christ had to die, it involved "using" people who would then be considered God-killers. Jews suffered as a consequence of the plan imposed on them.

[2timothy316]

We actually have a video on this very subject.

https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODMinistry ... 53_1_VIDEO

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 1 by sleepthroughthestatic]



Hi, sleepthroughthestatic.

I like clarity.. so I thought I'd help you out a bit with your argument. Hope you don't mind, and tell me what you think.

I'm slowly working through my thoughts on this topic. Any feedback or criticism would be appreciated, from all walks of faith (or lack thereof).

And then Blastcat saunters in......

Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

Jesus came to reveal to the world exactly what God is like.

Since you are building an argument, I would call that premise 1.

John 17:25-26: "Father, I showed the world what you are like". Jesus is the "exact imprint of God's nature" (Heb 1:3).

What this means is that Jesus revealed through his life, death, and resurrection EXACTLY what God is like, has always been like, and always will be like--for His moral character is unchanging (James 1:17).

The part that starts off with "What this means is... " Is a conclusion. You could easily start the sentence off with "THEREFORE, in CONCLUSION....."

So, your MAIN argument goes on.. but the bit between what I've called Premise 1, and the bit that starts with "What this means is..." Is an argument all by itself. An argument has a conclusion that is supported by premises. In this case, you have just one premise... and that's fine.

A logician will want to know if the CONCLUSION follows from the premises.
So, let me re-write for you this sub-argument so that we can take a closer look:

_____________________

Why did Jesus have to die?

• P1) Jesus came to reveal to the world exactly what God is like.
  P2) Because it says in the Bible : "John 17:25-26: "Father, I showed the world what you are like". Jesus is the "exact imprint of God's nature" (Heb 1:3)."
  
  C) THEREFORE, Jesus revealed through his life, death, and resurrection EXACTLY what God is like, has always been like, and always will be like.

_____________________

Look this over, and tell me if you think it accurately represents the sub-argument you are trying to make. I think it might need some editing... But I know I'm pretty close, anyway. I'm thinking I might not have your conclusion quite right. Take a hard look at that one.

[Blastcat]

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[marco]

We actually have a video on this very subject.

https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODMinistry ... 53_1_VIDEO

Sadly this simplistic take gives no sensible answers. It draws a parallel between Adam's alleged crime and that of a bank employee; crime affects others, but we are meant to suppose Adam's error (called a "rebellion") affected the entire human race. The obvious injustice of blaming the blameless is not similar to the consequential loss of jobs in the case of the bank employee.

By dying Jesus did absolutely nothing in parallel with a philanthropist who recues a bank. His death is meaningful if one gives credit to the sacrifice of a bull or a dove. When man tries to make sense of the absurd, he creates further absurdities.

[2timothy316]

We actually have a video on this very subject.

https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODMinistry ... 53_1_VIDEO

Sadly this simplistic take gives no sensible answers. It draws a parallel between Adam's alleged crime and that of a bank employee; crime affects others, but we are meant to suppose Adam's error (called a "rebellion") affected the entire human race. The obvious injustice of blaming the blameless is not similar to the consequential loss of jobs in the case of the bank employee.

So you think Adam wasn't rebelling? That his disobedience is ok? Satan told Eve that her and her husband could be in control. Rather than Jehovah setting the limits on good and bad they'd set those limits. Also, Eve thought there wouldn't be any repercussions if they did. Adam on the other hand knew there was a cost to disobedience and didn't care. (1 Timothy 2:14)

There's an injustice there and it most certainly lands on Adam's shoulders as he was the one responsible for every human being that was to come after him.

By dying Jesus did absolutely nothing in parallel with a philanthropist who recues a bank. His death is meaningful if one gives credit to the sacrifice of a bull or a dove. When man tries to make sense of the absurd, he creates further absurdities.

The idea is similar though in what is being replaced. To rescue the factory workers and their livelihood, it's debts had to be repaid. Jehovah God is just and He has standards that He can't just ignore. Deuteronomy 19:21 is the law of God. One that as imperfect humans we could have never repaid. We can't give a broken sinful body for a perfect sinless body.

So while people try to make it complex, why do that when the Bible makes it so simple? When really it's very simple even though it blows minds, that it is really simple. " Life will be for life" is God's Law and since He is always Just then He follows His own laws. Humans are the ones that give up following law when it doesn't suit them. God is not this way.

People say, 'why doesn't God just forgive the debt'? Using the same illustration in the video lets say that the world did this. No one's debts have to be repaid. What kind of world would we live in if everyone's work produced nothing. No one was paid for their what someone was in debt to them. We work 8 hours and because our company thinks we should forgive their debt, we get nothing. Why work at all? What if nature was this way? One law just for no reason just stopped working the way they do for just an hour. Aren't we glad that God upholds Himself to His laws?