Christians....... and all that Mammon!

[oldbadger]

Those Christians who believe that the bible is the infallible divine word of God, please read the verses below and then confirm that you lead a life free from riches, wealth, luxury and excessive comforts.

If not...... why not?

MATTHEW {19:23} Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I
say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the
kingdom of heaven. {19:24} And again I say unto you, It is
easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for
a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

MARK {10:24} And the disciples were
astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and
saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust
in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! {10:25} It is
easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for
a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

LUKE {18:24} And when Jesus saw that he was very
sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches
enter into the kingdom of God! {18:25} For it is easier for a
camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to
enter into the kingdom of God.

PS. Please excuse the OP for being a fat, comfy pagan Deist! Hell, I've even got a bicycle! But I don't believe that the bible is infallible!

[2timothy316]

I'm not real sure what you're trying to get at here but the text you have here is a bit out of context.

Why did Jesus say what he said?

"Now look! someone came up to him and said: “Teacher, what good must I do to gain everlasting life?� He said to him: “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If, though, you want to enter into life, observe the commandments continually.� He said to him: “Which ones?� Jesus said: “You must not murder, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not bear false witness, honor your father and your mother, and you must love your neighbor as yourself.� The young man said to him: “I have kept all of these; what am I still lacking?� Jesus said to him: “If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come be my follower.� When the young man heard this, he went away grieved, for he had many possessions." Mat 19:16-22

This when Jesus told his followers, "Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Truly I say to you that it will be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of the heavens. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.� When the disciples heard that, they were greatly astounded, saying: “Who really can be saved?� Looking at them intently, Jesus said to them: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.� Mat 19:23-26.

So is it possible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of the Heavens? Jesus says, 'With God all things are possible'. So, yes it is. But that man for some reason thought his possessions were worth more than eternal life. Sad.

While keeping free of the love of luxuries and material things is indeed helpful, removing these things are not what grants us favor with God. The lesson is not to let such things become greater than God in our hearts. That we don't 'turn away' when asked to leave something behind. This is a lesson for rich, middle class and poor. Anyone can put something material above the requests of our Creator. A rich man might cling to his possessions rather than follow Jesus' instructions. A middle class person might be working nights and weekends skipping their worship. A poor person might dream too much and attempt to gain the riches of this world while ignoring future blessing from God. Each has it's pitfalls but all can be dealt with if we put God first.

[oldbadger]

[Replying to post 2 by 2timothy316]

Thank you for your answer!
I see that you had trouble with what I was getting at?
But I see that although Jesus was emphatic about what he said, you don't think that he really meant it that way?
So he didn't mean what he said literally?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 2 by 2timothy316]

Thank you for your answer!
I see that you had trouble with what I was getting at?
But I see that although Jesus was emphatic about what he said, you don't think that he really meant it that way?
So he didn't mean what he said literally?

I think he was being literal when he said it will be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of the Heavens but not impossible if they are with God. Yet the rich man in the account went away grieved, for he had many possessions. It wasn't literally the possessions that stopped him. It was his love for those possessions.

Yet that man had no faith in future blessings. Jesus said in Mark 10:29, 30, “Truly I say to you, no one has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for my sake and for the sake of the good news who will not get 100 times more now in this period of time—houses, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and fields, with persecutions—and in the coming system of things, everlasting life."

So Jesus was trying to reach their hearts by admonishing them not to struggle for the riches they have now but the blessings they receive for leaving any of these things for the sake of following his ways. This is what the rich man that turned away couldn't see. He couldn't see beyond his own wealth. It was a commandment that he just wouldn't follow. Isn't it just as true today as it was back then? How many struggle for today's riches but rarely struggle for righteousness sake? Following only when it is convenient or easy. Sad. There could be a time when there will be a choice for many. Follow Jesus and live or chase after wealth and possibly parish. Lot's wife comes to mind. Turning back to see what she had lost and losing her life for not moving forward in trusting God's directions.

[oldbadger]

I think he was being literal when he said it will be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of the Heavens but not impossible if they are with God. Yet the rich man in the account went away grieved, for he had many possessions. It wasn't literally the possessions that stopped him. It was his love for those possessions.
............................

Please let me just address this para, above.
So have you decided:-
1. That Jesus meant to tag all that extra stuff on the end of his sentence?
2. That Christians can, after all, own lots of mammon, so long as they don't love it?

[2timothy316]

I think he was being literal when he said it will be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of the Heavens but not impossible if they are with God. Yet the rich man in the account went away grieved, for he had many possessions. It wasn't literally the possessions that stopped him. It was his love for those possessions.
............................

Please let me just address this para, above.
So have you decided:-
1. That Jesus meant to tag all that extra stuff on the end of his sentence?
2. That Christians can, after all, own lots of mammon, so long as they don't love it?

So long as they don't put it above God, yes they can have a bunch of stuff. Jesus being the Son of God it seems to me anything that he 'tagged' on would be on purpose. Thus 'tagged' on isn't really a good descriptor.

There are many rich people mentioned in the Bible. Both OT and NT have rich folks in them. Some where their wealth was a great source joy in to be able to give for the congregation. For some their greed and love of stuff was their down fall. Solomon was inspired by God to write, "For wisdom is a protection just as money is a protection, but the advantage of knowledge is this: Wisdom preserves the life of its owner." - Ecclesiastes 7:12. So money has it's uses, even if we have a lot or if we don't, money is is not what preserves us alive. Solomon himself was a very rich person. It wasn't riches that was his downfall as he was very generous to his people and didn't love it more than God. His downfall was pleasing women to the point of even worshiping false gods. He loved those women more than God. Even to participate in sickening rituals to please his wives. Too bad Solomon didn't follow Deuteronomy 17:16, 17.

Anytime we love or trust something more than the Almighty it is idolatry.

[oldbadger]

So long as they don't put it above God, yes they can have a bunch of stuff. Jesus being the Son of God it seems to me anything that he 'tagged' on would be on purpose. Thus 'tagged' on isn't really a good descriptor.

Ah.... but you put your own interpretation on it.
Maybe Jesus meant 'with God you can manage without Mammon'? I mean, Jesus didn't bother with stuff, and John he Baptist lived as close to self-subsistence as any human could, and then so many Christians, who stick so rigidly to laws which they feel self-righteous about, go lax on this ...? The really difficult laws which they can't talk away they seem to have got rid of in their 'new covenant'.

There are many rich people mentioned in the Bible. Both OT and NT have rich folks in them.

What would cause a Christian living in Jesus's name bother with OT Jewish rich folks for? What folks in Jesus's life and mission were acceptably rich? Can you remember what John the Baptist said about the rich priesthood?

Some where their wealth was a great source joy in to be able to give for the congregation. For some their greed and love of stuff was their down fall. Solomon was inspired by God to write, "For wisdom is a protection just as money is a protection, but the advantage of knowledge is this: Wisdom preserves the life of its owner." - Ecclesiastes 7:12. So money has it's uses, even if we have a lot or if we don't, money is is not what preserves us alive.

But Jesus would have little or nothing to do with money. I'm sure I remember him recommending his disciples to not carry money but to deal in 'kind'?

Solomon himself was a very rich person. It wasn't riches that was his downfall as he was very generous to his people and didn't love it more than God. His downfall was pleasing women to the point of even worshiping false gods. He loved those women more than God. Even to participate in sickening rituals to please his wives. Too bad Solomon didn't follow Deuteronomy 17:16, 17.

Did Jesus advocate his followers to follow Solomon? Was Solomon a Christian prophet?

Anytime we love or trust something more than the Almighty it is idolatry.

Well, do Christians like all their fancy gear and stuff?

[bluethread]

I think he was being literal when he said it will be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of the Heavens but not impossible if they are with God. Yet the rich man in the account went away grieved, for he had many possessions. It wasn't literally the possessions that stopped him. It was his love for those possessions.
............................

Please let me just address this para, above.
So have you decided:-
1. That Jesus meant to tag all that extra stuff on the end of his sentence?
2. That Christians can, after all, own lots of mammon, so long as they don't love it?

What part of "hardly" (duskolos, with difficulty) and "easier" (eukopoteros, with ease) is not literal. It is difficult but not impossible. Managing assets does not preclude one from entering Adonai's kingdom. However, if one has an evil eye, it is mighty difficult.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by oldbadger]

I don't understand what in the verses you see as problematic. Are we obliged to agree with your view of what lesson is being taught in the verses?

JW

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by oldbadger]

I don't understand what in the verses you see as problematic. Are we obliged to agree with your view of what lesson is being taught in the verses?

JW

Correct me if I'm wrong OB, but you seem to be calling out advocates of the "prosperity Gospel" as being at odds with Jesus teaching.

JW the verses are not problematic, exceptin' the way some prosperity Gospel devotees and televangelists ignore, rationalize or distort them.

I've even heard some of say that "Jesus died so we could (among other things) be wealthy/prosperous!

And those same preachers insist that Jesus himself was wealthy, and not poor. Based on some verse in Revelation or something.

Seems like fairly common thinkin' among Evangelicals, JW's too?