Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[tam]

[Replying to post 49 by Monta]

Peace to you Monta!


12 is a significant number, I agree. There are twelve sons of Jacob (Israel). 12 tribes. 12 apostles.

Literal numbers, all.


I can only share with you what I have learned from my Lord. What you do with that is up to you.


So:

The 144 000 is a literal number. 12 000 are reserved from each of those 12 listed tribes, and the twelve tribes are also literal tribes of Israel.


This is a portion of Israel that God has reserved, so that Israel is guaranteed to be among those who reign as kings and priests with His Son. An equal number from each of the 12 listed tribes (Joseph receives a double portion).

These 144 000 are also Christian.


More from (literal) Israel can enter into the Body of Christ of course, as long as they too come to Christ. But 144 000 places in that Body are reserved for literal Israel.


The Body of Christ itself is made up of both Israel and Gentile. That number is one that no man can count, because that number is not set. Only the number of the 144 000 is set because these are reserved and sealed from the very tribes of Israel that are listed in Revelation.


The number and the tribes are literal. And there is no other reason to list these individual tribes, except that the text actually means what it says. God has not forgotten Israel. God has reserved 144 000 places, guaranteed for them.


Gentiles are grafted into the branch; but the natural branches exist there as well.



May any who wish them be given ears to hear, so as to hear the truth of this matter, and may anyone who seeks and thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

Well, I have learned from my Lord that the 144,000 are not comprised of members of the physical 12 tribes of Israel. They are SPIRITUAL Jews, as Jesus, Paul and Peter indicated, the scriptural backing having been posted many times. The number is literal, as already discussed, but the "Israel" of Revelation 7 is not literal. Anyone who follows Christ and is anointed by God's Spirit is considered "Abraham's seed, heirs with a promise." (Romans 9:8; Galatians 3:26-29; Galatians 6:14-16)

"New Jerusalem" is heavenly, not erected by men and made up of literal streets and buildings, and is composed of the "bride" of Christ, the 144,000. The members of this "bride" were told that "their citizenship exists in the heavens and their hope is to receive "an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance." (Phil.3:20) This obviously cannot be a physical, earthly inheritance, wherewith they literally live on the earth. "It is reserved in the heavens" for them. (I Peter 1:4) That is where they will stay.

.

[tam]

Peace to you, One!

They are SPIRITUAL Jews, as Jesus, Paul and Peter indicated, the scriptural backing having been posted many times.

Neither Jaheshua, Paul, or Peter stated or even indicated that the 144 000 were spiritual Jews.

(Nor does that interpretation make any sense. Judah and Benjamin (from whom the Jews come) are listed as 2 tribes from among the 12. What is the point of making a distinction between the individual tribes (two of whom represent the Jews and ten of whom represent the rest of Israel), if they are all spiritual Jews?)

Anyone who follows Christ and is anointed by God's Spirit is considered "Abraham's seed, heirs with a promise."

Sure, but that does not mean that God did not also reserve seats for literal Israel (an equal number from each of the 12 tribes), guaranteeing literal Israel a place. Gentiles are, after all, grafted IN.

"New Jerusalem" is heavenly,

The New Jerusalem goes into heaven, but also comes down OUT OF heaven.

Black and white:

I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down OUT OF heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. Rev 21:2

not erected by men and made up of literal streets and buildings, and is composed of the "bride" of Christ, the 144,000.

Not erected by men or made up of literal streets and buildings. Correct. She is a city made of PEOPLE.

Christ does not state that she is limited to 144 000. The apostles do not state this. Paul does not state this. John does not state this in Revelation.


Christ nowhere states that there are two different classes of Christians with two different hopes (144 000 heavenly and everyone else earthly).

Indeed, if you could show me where He states this, then I would believe it. Same, I am sure, as you would believe in the trinity, if someone could simply show you where He (or anyone) wrote and taught it.


But you can't show me what I am asking because it does not exist.

The members of this "bride" were told that "their citizenship exists in the heavens and their hope is to receive "an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance." (Phil.3:20) This obviously cannot be a physical, earthly inheritance, wherewith they literally live on the earth. "It is reserved in the heavens" for them. (I Peter 1:4) That is where they will stay.

I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down OUT OF heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. Rev 21:2



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

Peace to you, One!

They are SPIRITUAL Jews, as Jesus, Paul and Peter indicated, the scriptural backing having been posted many times.

Neither Jaheshua, Paul, or Peter stated or even indicated that the 144 000 were spiritual Jews.

(Nor does that interpretation make any sense. Judah and Benjamin (from whom the Jews come) are listed as 2 tribes from among the 12. What is the point of making a distinction between the individual tribes (two of whom represent the Jews and ten of whom represent the rest of Israel), if they are all spiritual Jews?)

Anyone who follows Christ and is anointed by God's Spirit is considered "Abraham's seed, heirs with a promise."

Sure, but that does not mean that God did not also reserve seats for literal Israel (an equal number from each of the 12 tribes), guaranteeing literal Israel a place. Gentiles are, after all, grafted IN.

"New Jerusalem" is heavenly,

The New Jerusalem goes into heaven, but also comes down OUT OF heaven.

Black and white:

I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down OUT OF heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. Rev 21:2

not erected by men and made up of literal streets and buildings, and is composed of the "bride" of Christ, the 144,000.

Not erected by men or made up of literal streets and buildings. Correct. She is a city made of PEOPLE.

Christ does not state that she is limited to 144 000. The apostles do not state this. Paul does not state this. John does not state this in Revelation.


Christ nowhere states that there are two different classes of Christians with two different hopes (144 000 heavenly and everyone else earthly).

Indeed, if you could show me where He states this, then I would believe it. Same, I am sure, as you would believe in the trinity, if someone could simply show you where He (or anyone) wrote and taught it.


But you can't show me what I am asking because it does not exist.

The members of this "bride" were told that "their citizenship exists in the heavens and their hope is to receive "an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance." (Phil.3:20) This obviously cannot be a physical, earthly inheritance, wherewith they literally live on the earth. "It is reserved in the heavens" for them. (I Peter 1:4) That is where they will stay.

I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down OUT OF heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. Rev 21:2



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Those that are going to heaven---the 144,000---are SPIRITUAL Jews. Who else could Jesus and Paul have been talking about?

"Look---your house is abandoned to you!" (Matt.21:43---Jesus to the physical Jews.)


"Surely you know that those who adhere to the faith are the ones who are sons of Abraham." (Galatians 3:7)

"You [the Christian congregation] are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus....There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise." (Galatians 3:26,28,29)

So, with the introduction of SPIRITUAL Israel, it didn't matter if someone was a physical Jew or not---black and white. The New Jerusalem is SPIRITUAL. Made up of persons who have CHANGED from physical to SPIRIT bodies and reside in heaven. (I Corinthians 15:40,44,46-52) I have already quoted verses that show clearly that those changed persons will ALWAYS be in heaven. Why would Jesus and his co-rulers leave an environment such as is described in the letter to Timothy?

"[Jesus] the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see." (I Timothy 6:16)


To think that Jesus, who is now a glorious spirit person, along with his changed co-rulers, would leave that incredible spirit realm to come down here, literally, to the earth, is ridiculous. That is what MY Lord tells me.

There ARE seats reserved in heaven for many physical Jews. They made up undoubtedly a large majority of the 144,000 in the beginning of the Christian congregation. There are some even today. But people from the nations were "grafted in" and make up part of the 144,000 SPIRITUAL Jews.

You have never answered my question to you about what Jesus said at Matthew 28:20:

"I am WITH YOU always, even to the end of the age." (NASB)


How has Jesus been "with" his disciples since he went back to heaven?




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[tam]

[Replying to post 54 by onewithhim]

I have already quoted verses that show clearly that those changed persons will ALWAYS be in heaven.

No, you have not. You have shown verses that you (or the wts) interprets as meaning that.

Yet you and those interpretations are contradicted by just one verse that explicitly states the Bride comes down out of heaven.


Never mind the other examples that I have shared. I will let those posts stand on their own, and what people do with them,including ask Christ Himself for the truth of the matter, is up to them.


I will respond to the one question you say I have not responded to:

"I am WITH YOU always, even to the end of the age." (NASB)


How has Jesus been "with" his disciples since he went back to heaven?

He is with us by means of holy spirit, which He has given to us. The anointing of holy spirit, that which He breathed out upon His apostles, that which the many received at Pentecost, and many received later as well. He also speaks to us and teaches us; for He is alive. He can appear (as Paul attested), and as He said:


Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.



That being said, unless you are suggesting that Christ is never going to LITERALLY be with His Bride in heaven (or anywhere else) then I fail to see your point in asking about this verse. Because even you expect that the Bride will be with Christ in heaven.


So what does the verse that you shared have to do with what comes after He returns, literally, and gathers His bride up, literally, to Him?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

Yet you and those interpretations are contradicted by just one verse that explicitly states the Bride comes down out of heaven.

I will respond to the one question you say I have not responded to:

"I am WITH YOU always, even to the end of the age." (NASB)


How has Jesus been "with" his disciples since he went back to heaven?

He is with us by means of holy spirit, which He has given to us. The anointing of holy spirit, that which He breathed out upon His apostles, that which the many received at Pentecost, and many received later as well. He also speaks to us and teaches us; for He is alive. He can appear (as Paul attested), and as He said:


Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.



That being said, unless you are suggesting that Christ is never going to LITERALLY be with His Bride in heaven (or anywhere else) then I fail to see your point in asking about this verse. Because even you expect that the Bride will be with Christ in heaven.


So what does the verse that you shared have to do with what comes after He returns, literally, and gathers His bride up, literally, to Him?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You have just proven what I've been saying about Jesus literally being "WITH" us. He is not here physically or in actuality; he is here "in spirit," or, his attention is finely focused on his disciples on this earth, even though he is still in heaven.

The same can be said for Revelation 21. Christ and his Bride will not physically or literally be here, having "come down" out of heaven in a literal sense. You have completely missed the meaning of that; yet you see that Christ is "with" us now even though he is actually still in heaven! Amazing.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 56 by onewithhim]


"You have just proven what I've been saying about Jesus literally being "WITH" us. He is not here physically or in actuality; he is here "in spirit," or, his attention is finely focused on his disciples on this earth, even though he is still in heaven.

The same can be said for Revelation 21. Christ and his Bride will not physically or literally be here, having "come down" out of heaven in a literal sense. You have completely missed the meaning of that; yet you see that Christ is "with" us now even though he is actually still in heaven! Amazing."

He is not here physically, what is is His phisical like that it can't be here?
He is in heaven; which 'part' of Him is there?

To say that 'He is still actually in heaven' is to take away from Him His Omnipresence.
As such He can not be more of a God in heaven and less of a God on earth.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 56 by onewithhim]


"You have just proven what I've been saying about Jesus literally being "WITH" us. He is not here physically or in actuality; he is here "in spirit," or, his attention is finely focused on his disciples on this earth, even though he is still in heaven.

The same can be said for Revelation 21. Christ and his Bride will not physically or literally be here, having "come down" out of heaven in a literal sense. You have completely missed the meaning of that; yet you see that Christ is "with" us now even though he is actually still in heaven! Amazing."

He is not here physically, what is is His phisical like that it can't be here?
He is in heaven; which 'part' of Him is there?

To say that 'He is still actually in heaven' is to take away from Him His Omnipresence.
As such He can not be more of a God in heaven and less of a God on earth.

Jesus is once again a glorious spirit person, like his Father, God (John 4:24). He lives in "unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see." (I Timothy 6:16) How could the physical earth withstand such overwhelmingly glorious radiance? ALL of him is there in heaven, and there is nothing in the Bible to indicate that Jesus is "omnipresent."

It is clearly stated that he is in heaven. He LEFT the earth to go back to the Father.


"Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God..." (Acts 2:33, NASB)

"Christ Jesus is he who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God..." (Romans 8:34, NASB)

"Which He [God] brought about in Christ, when He raised him from the dead and seated him at His right hand in the heavenly places." (Ephesians 1:20)

"Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God." (Colossians 3:1)

(See also Hebrews 1:3,13; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; I Peter 3:22.)


"Jesus said to her [Mary], 'Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, "I ascend to my Father...and my God..."'" (John 20:17)



So, the Bible clearly says that Jesus is in heaven. There is no indication that he will ever LITERALLY leave there. That's where a study of the Bible comes in handy.

[tam]

And He will return in the same way that He left.

Acts 1:11



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

And He will return in the same way that He left.

Acts 1:11



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

And in what "way" (or manner) did he leave?