What kind of Father demands the blood of His Son?

[Elijah John]

Is the God of Jesus a merciful forgiving Father?

Or a bloodthirsty deity who must be appeased by the blood of animals, then later, by the blood of His favorite Son?

I realize these are loaded questions, and that my bias is apparent.

But which is it, merciful Father or Judge who demands blood?*

Which kind of God did Jesus himself teach? (not Paul, but Jesus)

What kind of Father demands the blood of his favorite Son in order to be able to forgive his other children?

--------------------

(note.. this thread is about forgiveness and atonement, not about the wars of YHVH's people etc.)

*if you answer "both" then please demonstrate how the two notions are compatible.

[2timothy316]

It can tell you what Jesus thought of his Father and mankind.

The Bible tells me what various anonymous authors (other than Paul) thought what Jesus said, did or thought. Not anything from Jesus himself. It may astonish you to learn that Jesus Christ himself, the man behind your religion, did not pen so much as a single page.

Nope. Very old news.

It might surprise you but my handle of 2timothy316 is not an accident. For me Jesus didn't have to write anything. Even while he was on Earth he didn't do all the preaching himself. He sent others on their own. (Do you know the scriptures that says this?) Their message is just as good as if Jesus gave it himself. I view the Bible the same way. "For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit." 2 Peter 1:21. Weather this is true or not is not up for debate either in this forum.

There is a scripture that says that God would send His spirit to bring back to their mind everything Jesus said. Do you know it?

[marco]

I have to agree with that scripture. This is why Jesus is called the "lamb of God' it's an allustion to the passover victim.

The whole concept of being washed in the blood of the lamb is a remnant of early barbarism. One can regard a lamb as something gentle; or one can regard it as a piece of meat; or we can see it as something to be slaughtered in sacrifice.

The interpretation depends on our own particular views and of course has little to do with Scripture. People can believe what they want. It does seem absurd to have God messing around with the entrails of his son, given in sacrifice. It makes no sense at all.

[2timothy316]

All you have to go on is what the Bible says,

And you seem to be going on your own merit which really is less to me anyway. But I can see you value your own words so much more than anyone else. This is called narcissism. "a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration."

The Bible even has a view on this as a person is a 'lover of themselves and not open to any agreement'. More concerned with what pleases them 'rather than lovers of God'. 2 Tim 3:3, 4

Is there anything else, 'other than yourself' you trust when it comes to matters of God?

[2timothy316]

Like a child telling it's mother, 'I didn't ask to be brought into this world, so you owe me!' Childish reasoning...seeing life as a burden and not a gift.

The mother (assuming she was not raped) presumably wilfully chose to bear the child, so she has a responsibility to care for it.

Yes. Yet do you think that the child owes nothing to it's mother?

Not demand that it give to her something that she gives back, in a demonstration of obedience.

Really? You don't think children should obey their parents? You think that parents shouldn't expect their children to obey them? Do you have children? Please say no. I have bad visions of children maimed from a lack of parenting.

Your parent analogy falls apart because earlier you said God could have chosen to wipe out Adam and Eve.

Nope. Any child has the option to do their own thing. Even take their own life. You're still in the mind set all of this is God's fault and it seems that is what you want to believe so bad. But, really people make these choices. God didn't wipe out A&E. They wiped themselves out. Jesus volunteered to cover the sin that would be passed on to their offspring. That includes you and me. Yet, you hate God for it?

Im going to guess that you're of the millennial generation?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 80 by 2timothy316]

For me Jesus didn't have to write anything.

Then it seems that for you to know what a certain someone thought, the requirements need only be that someone else write about them.
Unfortunately for you, my requirements are a bit higher than that. I need at the very least something written by they themselves (or dictated by them).

He sent others on their own. (Do you know the scriptures that says this?)

My not knowing of the specific verse or verses off of the top of my head does not mean that I have not studied the Bible.
Please notice that so far, I have not accused you of the same.

Their message is just as good as if Jesus gave it himself.

I do not accept this logic.

There is a scripture that says that God would send His spirit to bring back to their mind everything Jesus said. Do you know it?

There is a scripture that says God will send spirits to deceive people. Do you know it?

You seem to equate memorization of the Bible with studying it and understanding it. I do believe that there is a popular critique on modern educational methods, that typically focus on rote memorization. Have you heard them?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 69 by 2timothy316]

Here we go again with 50 first dates again.

And here I thought it was 25 or 6 to 4.

"This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my life, so that I may receive it again. No man takes it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again. - John 10:17, 18

There is your confirmation.

Thank you.

So what do you make of "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? " (Matthew 27:46)

He kinda forgot?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 79 by 2timothy316]

I didn't use bookmarks and I don't have a Bible in even near me.

There's a Bible passage that comes to mind, something about logs in one's eye. Do you know it?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 83 by 2timothy316]

Im going to guess that you're of the millennial generation?

It wouldn't be much of a guess since my age is shown underneath my user-name on the left. I was born in 1989, so yes, by mere dint of when I was born, I am a millenial.
However, my attitudes and outlook on life are not dependent on when I was born. I'm actually rather conservative in many ways.
Please, given the abject number of failures you have demonstrated when it comes to understanding how I think, stop trying to declare that I think a certain way.
How about you try asking me?

Really? You don't think children should obey their parents? You think that parents shouldn't expect their children to obey them? Do you have children? Please say no. I have bad visions of children maimed from a lack of parenting.

There's a difference between obeying one's parents out of respect for their age and wisdom...and giving something to the parents (even one's own life) and having it handed back merely as a demonstration of subservience.

Yes. Yet do you think that the child owes nothing to it's mother?

Can it be a continuum of such? It seems to me that you think it's either all or nothing: complete subservience, or nothing.

You're still in the mind set all of this is God's fault and it seems that is what you want to believe so bad.

Not what I want or desire to believe. Again, please stop pretending you understand how I think, when quite clearly you haven't got the foggiest clue.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 72 by 2timothy316]



[center]
Some people think forgiving is the HARDEST thing to do
Hint:.. its really not, once you grow up a bit.. it's really easy[/center]

If I also was an all powerful father.. I'd think up another way... I'd save all those millions AND my kids.

Ok lets hear this wise and powerful solution.

For starters, I'd just GET OVER IT.. and leave people alone.. no magic powers involved. I am a father.. So what.. Adam and Eve disappointed me.. big WOOP.

I'd get over it like a grown up.

I forgive people ALL THE TIME no sweat.
Oh, and they forgive me too.. no blood.. no cross.. no death torture or humiliation involved.

My kids have my forgiveness automatically, because I'm their DAD.
It's just there for them.

They don't even ever ever have to ask.
EVER.

If I love.. I forgive.
Simple.

Your god is insane.
Sorry.

One thing you can't do as an all powerful being and that is force someone to love you.

Now why oh why oh why oh why would I EVER want to have my son die in order for someone else to LOVE me..?

I have to be lovable for starters... and then, lucky.
FORCE people to love me?

I'm not insane...
What are you talking about?

[Claire Evans]

Is the God of Jesus a merciful forgiving Father?

Or a bloodthirsty deity who must be appeased by the blood of animals, then later, by the blood of His favorite Son?

I realize these are loaded questions, and that my bias is apparent.

But which is it, merciful Father or Judge who demands blood?*

Which kind of God did Jesus himself teach? (not Paul, but Jesus)

What kind of Father demands the blood of his favorite Son in order to be able to forgive his other children?

--------------------

(note.. this thread is about forgiveness and atonement, not about the wars of YHVH's people etc.)

*if you answer "both" then please demonstrate how the two notions are compatible.

Yahweh and God aren't the same so we can safely say the Father did not want animal sacrifices.

Then what is God's name? The name of God is used in a sacred way almost 6000 times in the Hebrew Bible, and Jesus teaches us to hallow God's name.

It doesn't matter what God's name is. The point is that Yahweh is not the same as the Father. He was a Canaanite deity who adopted the Israelites.

God did not demand blood.

On that we agree. He does not demand blood, nor does He desire it. (Hosea 6.6)

Jesus was not someone who was offered as a blood sacrifice to a deity. He offered His life for us and it so happened that blood was shed because of the actions of man. That had nothing to do with God. He didn't want it but the point was for Jesus to die so sin and Satan could be defeated and to have the resurrection.

How, why was this the case? God could defeat sin and Satan with a wave of His hand. Besides, if Jesus died to destroy sin and death, or sin and Satan...why do people still sin, and still die?

God cannot defeat sin and Satan with a wave of His hand. Surely He would have done that if He could. To defeat death means that we can have eternal life. It doesn't have the final say. It doesn't mean we cannot die on earth. Think about that: it would be very problematic if no one died. Jesus defeated sin does not mean people won't still sin. It means that those who sin can be redeemed if they ask Jesus for forgiveness. Then that sin is wiped clean.

We do not have the divine nature of Jesus so we cannot put ourselves in the same league as Jesus who is God's only begotten son. We aren't considered God incarnate when humans are referred to as sons and daughters of God.

What then, is the talk of Spirit vs. flesh in the life of the believer? We are all made in God's image, and the Spirit incarnates (we are Temples) into the life of every believer.

In God's image in that we feel love, compassion, joy. That is His nature: loving. Therefore we are made in that image. It doesn't mean we have a spirit that is part of God.

Nowhere did Jesus say God demanded animal sacrifices.

Once again, we agree..in fact, it seems Jesus preached against the practice, quoting Hosea 6.6, overturning the tables at the Temple, preaching forgiveness with no mention of blood etc.

Did He really quote Hosea? The OT is problematic because it is constantly contradicting itself. For example:

Leviticus 1:9 says, “The priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.�

He taught that it is not through the scriptures that one finds God. If they have seen Jesus, they have seen the Father.

Ironic then, that his words became Scripture. I don't think he was precluding folks from the possibility of finding God through Scripture, but perhaps offering a viable alternative. Didn't he also say "search the Scriptures?

Without the scriptures, we wouldn't know about Jesus. It is important. However, it is all very well to know the scriptures but it means nothing unless one has a relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit who is the Great Teacher. Even the devil can recite scriptures.

God was reaching out to all people through Jesus, not just to the Jews.

Perhaps, though he said he was only sent to the lost children of Israel. But even so, Jesus was not unique in his universalism. YHVH though Isaiah implored:

..Was it not I, YHVH? There is no other God besides me, a righteous God and a Savior, there is no one besides me. Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the Earth! For I am God, there is no other.

(Isaiah 45.21-22)

And also Jeremiah was called a "Prophet to the Nations".

Jesus said that to test the Canaanite woman. When the woman still persisted in seeking help from Jesus even though being told Jesus was only for Israel, Jesus commended her for her faith and healed her daughter.

In Jeremiah 50:6, God calls Israel His people and “lost sheep.� The Messiah, spoken of throughout the Old Testament, was seen as the one who would gather these “lost sheep� (Ezekiel 34:23-24; Micah 5:4-5). When Jesus presented Himself as a shepherd to Israel, He was claiming to be the fulfillment of Messianic prophecy (Mark 6:34, 14:27; John 10:11-16; see also Hebrews 13:20; 1 Peter 5:4; and Revelation 7:17).

https://www.gotquestions.org/lost-sheep-Israel.html

Isaiah had a mission and that was to keep the Yahwist religion alive by wanting to spread it world wide. And to do that, Yahweh was changed from a polytheistic god to a monotheistic one. Previously, Yahweh was one of many gods.

For [Jehovah] is the great God, and the great King above all gods (Ps. 95:3).
All the gods bow down before [Jehovah] (Ps. 97:7).
I know [Jehovah] is great, and our Lord is superior to all gods. (Ps. 135:5)