Don't I have every excuse for not believing in God?

[The Transcended Omniverse]

I would like to speak on behalf of not only myself, but on the behalf of all other nonbelievers out there. First off, Christianity says that the law has been written in our hearts so that we instinctively know that God is real. I think this is nonsense. I have never felt God was real and have never considered the concept of a God until much later on when I stumbled upon the bible and Christianity. The same thing applies to people in other areas of the world who have never heard of a God.

If it were embedded in them as some sort of instinctive divine knowledge, then they would feel it and be aware of it. Christianity would say that it is our blind and sinful nature that makes us blind and unaware of this knowledge. But this is just a claim. It is a claim no different than the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, etc. So how do you expect me or anyone else to take your word for it?

I am, however, a very open minded person. I am very open minded to what skeptics have to say and also to what believers in the afterlife, God, and the paranormal have to say. The only way to arrive at the truth is through an honest open minded mindset. That is the only right way to do it because any other way would be close minded/irrational.

Christians expect me to believe in the gospel after I have read it. Now that would be close minded to do so. Even if I felt God's presence in my life, that would also be close minded for me to just believe God is real because feelings do not dictate what is true and not true. Feelings are irrational and do not tell you what is true and not true.

I have read the gospel and I don't believe it because there are so many things out there to be open minded to besides just some story in a book of a holy man being crucified on the cross. We have all the claimed evidence out there that is claimed to support Christianity and we also have the claimed evidence on the skeptics' side as well.

I have researched online time and time again with an open mind towards skeptics who claim the paranormal/God evidence to be nonsense and towards believers who claim that the evidence is authentic and that the skeptics are talking nonsense. I see nothing more than an ongoing debate back and forth that just leads nowhere. It is no different than those philosophical debates that go on and on between sides of a debate, but lead to no conclusion.

The concept of God and life after death has been a topic debated by scientists and philosophers for ages. I just think it is a bit unrealistic here to expect me to dedicate my entire life into researching into virtually everything that has been debated for ages in order for me to come to the right conclusion when such a conclusion might not even exist. I have researched all I could and I just have to stop here. I have lost interest and I just have to remain undecided on the existence of God and the afterlife.

Also, just because many things seem to all add up to the existence of God and the afterlife and just because these things sound very compelling, that does not make it so. There are plenty of things that add up and sound very compelling to support any other claim out there, but that does not make that claim plausible or true. As a matter of fact, such claims have been proven false despite the fact that they sounded very compelling at the time.

Therefore, I cannot conclude that God and the afterlife exist on this basis either. In other words, you can present to me all the claimed evidence out there that makes a compelling case for Christianity, but that will not convince me either since I have a very open mind and I already realize that just because something sounds compelling does not make it so.

Lastly, many Christians would tell me that I am blinding myself from God's presence and that I am sinning by doing this open minded research. First off, this presupposes that Christianity is true to being with. How do you expect me to be convinced of that when I have already done all the research I could and am still not convinced? Secondly, doing open minded research is the only way to come to the right conclusion because all other ways are close minded/irrational.

So with all of this being said, if Christianity is true and the Christian God is real, then we are clearly talking an unfair God here. You can clearly see the predicament I am in and not only is it a hopeless predicament where there is no way to convince me God is real, but is also a completely understandable predicament that should be sympathized with. I see absolutely no reason at all to see such a predicament as being worthy of punishment in hell. To think so would be asinine, absurd, cruel, unfair, and daft.

Therefore, the only way God can be all loving and all just would be if I weren't to go to hell and that God would introduce himself to me after I die and give me the choice as to whether I want to serve him or not. I should not just automatically go to hell simply because I did not believe and did not dedicate my life to someone I did not believe existed in the first place.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by The Transcended Omniverse]

I have never felt God was real and have never considered the concept of a God until much later on when I stumbled upon the bible and Christianity.

Aye. Even back when I was a strong believer, I never actually felt anything that I would hazard a guess as 'godly' or 'godlike' or 'divine'. I believed what I believed for bad reasons.

If it were embedded in them as some sort of instinctive divine knowledge, then they would feel it and be aware of it. Christianity would say that it is our blind and sinful nature that makes us blind and unaware of this knowledge. But this is just a claim. It is a claim no different than the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, etc. So how do you expect me or anyone else to take your word for it?

Let's make this an argument shall we? What is different between the following claims?

Christian - God definitely exists and wrote it in our hearts. If you don't feel that, it's because of your wicked sinful nature that blocks him.
Santa-ist - Santa Clause definitely exists and we can feel that in our hearts. If you don't feel that, it's because of your naughty nature.

The Christian doesn't believe Santa exists more than likely because he's never seen evidence that Santa exists. If the Santa-ist made the above claim to him, the Christian wouldn't even give it a moment's thought. He'd just dismiss it out of hand as being obviously not true.

Feelings are irrational and do not tell you what is true and not true.

Au contraire...I would say otherwise. They can help (for lack of a better word) one find out what is true, the problem with using feelings is that well...it is irrational as you said. It doesn't explain itself in any way that can be understood.
I could use feelings alone and say "I feel like I am alive right now". "I am alive" is a true statement (at least as of the time of writing this comment, dunno about 80 years in the future!), and feelings have helped me discover something that is true...but what good is that method? Indeed, is it even a method at all? What methodology are feelings? I have heard of cases where some people stated they honestly felt like they were dead.

I have read the gospel and I don't believe it because there are so many things out there to be open minded to besides just some story in a book of a holy man being crucified on the cross. We have all the claimed evidence out there that is claimed to support Christianity

More to the point, literally everything a Christian might say to me as to why he says he believes what the Bible says about Jesus, there are cases where the exact same reasons can be used for more recent religions.
In the past, I argued with someone who gave me a laundry list of reasons why he believed the Bible. I asked him why, using those reasons, he didn't believe Scientology.

I see nothing more than an ongoing debate back and forth that just leads nowhere. It is no different than those philosophical debates that go on and on between sides of a debate, but lead to no conclusion.

Same.
Great fun though.

I just think it is a bit unrealistic here to expect me to dedicate my entire life into researching into virtually everything that has been debated for ages in order for me to come to the right conclusion when such a conclusion might not even exist.

I think of it like this. The Christian theists on this site, the regulars, who make all these arguments in favour of their God existing...what about ordinary Joe Blow Christian? Apparently, according to this site's resident Christian population, their God is loving and merciful, and will reward those who believe in him, and his only begotten son's sacrifice.
Okay...so why bother trying to come up with all these arguments for your god's existence? If your god is going to reward the 'in-the-pew' Christian who doesn't really think about this very much (if at all), who just believes...why chew over the Modal Ontological Argument for example?

I see absolutely no reason at all to see such a predicament as being worthy of punishment in hell. To think so would be asinine, absurd, cruel, unfair, and daft.

But fully in character with the entity called God from the Old Testament.

Therefore, the only way God can be all loving and all just would be if I weren't to go to hell and that God would introduce himself to me after I die and give me the choice as to whether I want to serve him or not.

I think you left out the part where he doesn't hold a gun to your head and threaten to shoot if you choose not to serve him.
In fact...would an actual loving God even WANT servants?

I should not just automatically go to hell simply because I did not believe and did not dedicate my life to someone I did not believe existed in the first place.

I don't believe in hell either. In fact, I don't even worry AT ALL that I might possibly be going there (wherever or whatever it may be). So to threaten me with it for the crime of unbelief...yeah I agree, sounds absurd and unloving.

[Zzyzx]

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Kindly provide a question for debate or thread will be moved to a non-debate sub-forum. It is now only a personal monolog / opinion / observation.



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[rikuoamero]

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Moderator Action

Kindly provide a question for debate or thread will be moved to a non-debate sub-forum. It is now only a personal monolog / opinion / observation.



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I'd imagine such a question might be
"Is it just/fair/wise/loving to threaten someone with hell {description pending} merely for not believing you exist?"

[The Transcended Omniverse]

[Replying to post 3 by Zzyzx]

I have fixed it now.

[1213]

I would like to speak on behalf of not only myself, but on the behalf of all other nonbelievers out there. First off, Christianity says that the law has been written in our hearts ...

Where that is actually said? I don’t remember Bible saying that.

[ttruscott]

Therefore, I cannot conclude that God and the afterlife exist on this basis either. In other words, you can present to me all the claimed evidence out there that makes a compelling case for Christianity, but that will not convince me either since I have a very open mind and I already realize that just because something sounds compelling does not make it so.

The verse in the Bible that Christians thinks denies you any excuse is Rom 1:20 For from the creation of the world His invisible qualities, both His eternal power and divinity, are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, for them to be without excuse.

This verse at its strongest interpretation claims that since we all (you) saw HIS divinity and power when HE created all that was made, that is, the creation of the physical universe, that we are without excuse for not worshipping and obeying HIM.

The rest of the chapter goes over (quite a number of times) the fact that we do not remember this proof because we have suppressed / repressed those memories because our love for sin is stronger than our love for the truth, a characteristic of all sinners called being enslaved to sin.

This would mean to a Christian that when one says 'nothing has been proven to me,' they are just saying, I am a sinner.

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Therefore, I cannot conclude that God and the afterlife exist on this basis either. In other words, you can present to me all the claimed evidence out there that makes a compelling case for Christianity, but that will not convince me either since I have a very open mind and I already realize that just because something sounds compelling does not make it so.

The verse in the Bible that Christians thinks denies you any excuse is Rom 1:20 For from the creation of the world His invisible qualities, both His eternal power and divinity, are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, for them to be without excuse.

This verse at its strongest interpretation claims that since we all (you) saw HIS divinity and power when HE created all that was made, that is, the creation of the physical universe, that we are without excuse for not worshipping and obeying HIM.

The rest of the chapter goes over (quite a number of times) the fact that we do not remember this proof because we have suppressed / repressed those memories because our love for sin is stronger than our love for the truth, a characteristic of all sinners called being enslaved to sin.

This would mean to a Christian that when one says 'nothing has been proven to me,' they are just saying, I am a sinner.

How do you expect me to believe this claim you are making to me? The best I can ever do is research all the claimed evidence out there with an honest open mind which is what I have done. My honest open minded conclusion leaves me undecided as I explained in my opening post.

There is nothing more that I or anyone else can do. What you pointed out with evidence being all around is also another claim that I have remained open minded to and have remained undecided. I have read what the skeptics had to say about this as well and my honest open minded mindset leaves me undecided.

[tam]

Peace to you TTO,

I would like to speak on behalf of not only myself, but on the behalf of all other nonbelievers out there. First off, Christianity says that the law has been written in our hearts so that we instinctively know that God is real. I think this is nonsense. I have never felt God was real and have never considered the concept of a God until much later on when I stumbled upon the bible and Christianity. The same thing applies to people in other areas of the world who have never heard of a God.

If it were embedded in them as some sort of instinctive divine knowledge, then they would feel it and be aware of it. Christianity would say that it is our blind and sinful nature that makes us blind and unaware of this knowledge. But this is just a claim. It is a claim no different than the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, etc. So how do you expect me or anyone else to take your word for it?

The law that is written on (some, not all) hearts, is the law of love. God's law. This law is written upon the hearts of Christians (not all who call themselves Christian are truly Christian), because the law being written upon the heart is a feature of the new covenant.

There are also people of the nations (who are not Christian) who NATURALLY do the requirements of that law, proving that the law is also upon their hearts.

For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them. This will come to pass on that day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel. Romans 2:13-16


Such as the sheep from the sheep and the goats parable, where the sheep are invited into the Kingdom by Christ Himself, after He returns to set up His Kingdom, for them having unknowingly done good to Christ, by having done good to even a least one of His brothers.





I am not sure what other law people might have told you is written upon hearts.


**


That being said, every nation, culture, people, that we know of... through all the ages... has sought out some form of the spiritual: God/gods/goddesses/spirits.


Which seems a strong suggestion to me that man is seeking something more than his physical senses can see/taste/hear/touch/smell. That he is seeking something more than the physical/natural, because there IS something more than the physical/natural and he KNOWS this on some level (a level that this world teaches man to suppress). Perhaps he was TOLD this (in the spirit, by the Spirit) at some point or even many points in his life (perhaps even before he was born, coming into this world with that knowing/seeking, and which this world tends to suppress, for multiple reasons, including that this world puts much emphasis on the physical senses).



That being said, just because every culture, nation, people - EVER - has sought God and/or the spiritual in some form... does not mean that every single person in those cultures has necessarily done the same.


Faith is not the possession of every man, for whatever reason. I certainly do not know them all, and I certainly do not judge anyone for their faith or their lack of faith.

Some may suppress the faith that they might have had at first (or that might have grown in them). It is not popular to believe right now without some sort of scientific evidence; and yet, science has not yet developed to the point where it can detect the spiritual. Science is about the physical: what can be seen, heard, touched, tasted, smelled with the physical senses/tools designed to measure the physical. That doesn't mean the spiritual is not there... only that science has not developed enough to have the tools/means to detect something that is not 'natural' (physical) Science hasn't even developed enough to have the tools/means to detect every 'natural' (physical) yet.


**


As to what you wish to discuss:


Hell - at least the hell that much of Christianity has described as a place of torment for eternity - does not exist.


But even if it did, no one is sent there simply because they do not believe in God. As stated above and as my Lord has shown me in the parable of the sheep and the goats, when Christ returns to establish His Kingdom, all the nations are gathered before Him. (He has already gathered His Bride, those who truly are Christian, up to Him - what some people refer to as the rapture) The nations that are alive when Christ returns are gathered before Him and separated into the sheep and the goats: the sheep are invited into the Kingdom and given eternal life; the goats are cast out.

All of this is done on the basis of what the sheep and the goats have DONE to/for Him (unknowingly), having done those thing to/for a least one of His brothers.


But it is because of God's MERCY that more than just Christians enter the Kingdom as subjects of that Kingdom, and these ones also receive eternal life.


(more detail here, post 877: viewtopic.php?t=22894&postdays=0&postor ... &start=870)







May anyone who wishes be given ears to hear so as to hear the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come!" May anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of life!"


Peace again to you and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Zzyzx]

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The law that is written on (some, not all) hearts, is the law of love. God's law. This law is written upon the hearts of Christians (not all who call themselves Christian are truly Christian), because the law being written upon the heart is a feature of the new covenant.

Tam, exactly what does 'written on hearts' MEAN?

Most of us are aware that the human heart is a blood pump that does not likely have anything written upon it (whether a person is Christian or not).