Don't I have every excuse for not believing in God?

[The Transcended Omniverse]

I would like to speak on behalf of not only myself, but on the behalf of all other nonbelievers out there. First off, Christianity says that the law has been written in our hearts so that we instinctively know that God is real. I think this is nonsense. I have never felt God was real and have never considered the concept of a God until much later on when I stumbled upon the bible and Christianity. The same thing applies to people in other areas of the world who have never heard of a God.

If it were embedded in them as some sort of instinctive divine knowledge, then they would feel it and be aware of it. Christianity would say that it is our blind and sinful nature that makes us blind and unaware of this knowledge. But this is just a claim. It is a claim no different than the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, etc. So how do you expect me or anyone else to take your word for it?

I am, however, a very open minded person. I am very open minded to what skeptics have to say and also to what believers in the afterlife, God, and the paranormal have to say. The only way to arrive at the truth is through an honest open minded mindset. That is the only right way to do it because any other way would be close minded/irrational.

Christians expect me to believe in the gospel after I have read it. Now that would be close minded to do so. Even if I felt God's presence in my life, that would also be close minded for me to just believe God is real because feelings do not dictate what is true and not true. Feelings are irrational and do not tell you what is true and not true.

I have read the gospel and I don't believe it because there are so many things out there to be open minded to besides just some story in a book of a holy man being crucified on the cross. We have all the claimed evidence out there that is claimed to support Christianity and we also have the claimed evidence on the skeptics' side as well.

I have researched online time and time again with an open mind towards skeptics who claim the paranormal/God evidence to be nonsense and towards believers who claim that the evidence is authentic and that the skeptics are talking nonsense. I see nothing more than an ongoing debate back and forth that just leads nowhere. It is no different than those philosophical debates that go on and on between sides of a debate, but lead to no conclusion.

The concept of God and life after death has been a topic debated by scientists and philosophers for ages. I just think it is a bit unrealistic here to expect me to dedicate my entire life into researching into virtually everything that has been debated for ages in order for me to come to the right conclusion when such a conclusion might not even exist. I have researched all I could and I just have to stop here. I have lost interest and I just have to remain undecided on the existence of God and the afterlife.

Also, just because many things seem to all add up to the existence of God and the afterlife and just because these things sound very compelling, that does not make it so. There are plenty of things that add up and sound very compelling to support any other claim out there, but that does not make that claim plausible or true. As a matter of fact, such claims have been proven false despite the fact that they sounded very compelling at the time.

Therefore, I cannot conclude that God and the afterlife exist on this basis either. In other words, you can present to me all the claimed evidence out there that makes a compelling case for Christianity, but that will not convince me either since I have a very open mind and I already realize that just because something sounds compelling does not make it so.

Lastly, many Christians would tell me that I am blinding myself from God's presence and that I am sinning by doing this open minded research. First off, this presupposes that Christianity is true to being with. How do you expect me to be convinced of that when I have already done all the research I could and am still not convinced? Secondly, doing open minded research is the only way to come to the right conclusion because all other ways are close minded/irrational.

So with all of this being said, if Christianity is true and the Christian God is real, then we are clearly talking an unfair God here. You can clearly see the predicament I am in and not only is it a hopeless predicament where there is no way to convince me God is real, but is also a completely understandable predicament that should be sympathized with. I see absolutely no reason at all to see such a predicament as being worthy of punishment in hell. To think so would be asinine, absurd, cruel, unfair, and daft.

Therefore, the only way God can be all loving and all just would be if I weren't to go to hell and that God would introduce himself to me after I die and give me the choice as to whether I want to serve him or not. I should not just automatically go to hell simply because I did not believe and did not dedicate my life to someone I did not believe existed in the first place.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 7 by ttruscott]

The rest of the chapter goes over (quite a number of times) the fact that we do not remember this proof because we have suppressed / repressed those memories because our love for sin is stronger than our love for the truth, a characteristic of all sinners called being enslaved to sin.

Having just re-read Romans 1, I have to ask you where you get this from. Indeed, your theology, as you present it, says
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

So in order of events is
1) We humans existed in this Sheol. This is before the creation of the world.
2) We made the choice you talk about
3) THEN the world was created. You say it yourself 'Then the physical universe was created'.

At no point in Romans 1, from what I read in the NIV at least, does it mention that this choice you talk about happens BEFORE the creation of the world.

So I'm seeing a contradiction here. Ted's theology says the choice was made BEFORE the creation of the world, and that we were wrong to make the choice we supposedly made, without excuse. But Romans 1 says that it was only at the creation of the world that we saw God, and recognised that he was in fact God, saw his power and might in creating the universe, and only THEN that we became 'without excuse'.

Ted...in your theology, we didn't necessarily know that this God character actually was God. So how are we 'without excuse'?

[tam]

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The law that is written on (some, not all) hearts, is the law of love. God's law. This law is written upon the hearts of Christians (not all who call themselves Christian are truly Christian), because the law being written upon the heart is a feature of the new covenant.

Tam, exactly what does 'written on hearts' MEAN?

Most of us are aware that the human heart is a blood pump that does not likely have anything written upon it (whether a person is Christian or not).

Not speaking of the literal organ.

The law being written on the heart, as in the law is written on the core of you; it is in you. Just as "out of the heart's abundance, the mouth speaks".


You speak and act from what is in you (from what is written upon your heart).


So that some people do not need a written law to know that stealing or murder or harming others is wrong; some people do not need a written law to tell them to give to those in need. Some people do need a written law to keep them from doing wrong, and some people do need a written law to tell them to give to those in need (just as an example).

Israel had forgotten the law (and their hearts were too hard for the law to be written upon them); hence they had to be given the written law. And even then their hearts were hard enough that allowances were made for them in the written law. Unlike their forefathers (such as Abraham or Abel) who had no written law, but still followed the law.



I am assuming that you know that I was not speaking about the literal organ (just as I understand that my Lord and others who serve Him were not speaking about that literal organ), but hopefully the above clarifies a bit.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[The Transcended Omniverse]

I would like anybody who wishes to respond to this topic to instead respond to this new topic I have made since it is a summarized version of this very topic:

viewtopic.php?t=32047

[Zzyzx]

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Not speaking of the literal organ.

The law being written on the heart, as in the law is written on the core of you; it is in you. Just as "out of the heart's abundance, the mouth speaks".

I see – that is an attempt to be poetic or metaphorical or to use flowery language. Why not, in debate, just say what we mean and mean what we say?

Is this to say that some 'law' is 'written' on the 'core' of humans? All humans or just some of them? Do the 'gods' favor certain people and not others? How can that be shown to be true – or is it just more speculation?

You speak and act from what is in you (from what is written upon your heart).

I speak and act from what my mind / brain decides based upon what I have learned about the environment I inhabit. I see absolutely no evidence that any supernatural entities have influenced my thinking or programmed me by 'writing' any 'laws'.

If anyone suggests that I AM influenced by supernatural entities, I ask for evidence that contention is anything more than pure speculation on their part – and presumptuous assumption based on their personal beliefs rather than on evidence.

So that some people do not need a written law to know that stealing or murder or harming others is wrong; some people do not need a written law to tell them to give to those in need.

Agreed. Some people are taught as children by their caregivers and social contacts to regard certain things as 'wrong' (as decided by their society). No gods are required for this.

However, if a child is raised to be an executioner for a drug cartel or to be a suicide bomber for religious extremists, what is 'written on their heart' (to use the flowery language approach) is that killing is good and proper. Again, no gods (or supernatural entities) required.

Some people do need a written law to keep them from doing wrong, and some people do need a written law to tell them to give to those in need (just as an example).

Some who have debated here over the years indicated that the 'laws' of their religion are all that keep them from running amok, raping, killing, stealing, etc.

Some, even WITH written law do not refrain from 'doing wrong'. So what?

Israel had forgotten the law (and their hearts were too hard for the law to be written upon them); hence they had to be given the written law. And even then their hearts were hard enough that allowances were made for them in the written law. Unlike their forefathers (such as Abraham or Abel) who had no written law, but still followed the law.

So goes the tale in religion-promotion literature.

I am assuming that you know that I was not speaking about the literal organ (just as I understand that my Lord and others who serve Him were not speaking about that literal organ), but hopefully the above clarifies a bit.

I understand that many people use flowery, poetic, metaphorical language attempting to conceal that they cannot substantiate their claims and stories. Notice how those can be used for 'wiggle room' when challenged.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 12 by tam]

The law being written on the heart, as in the law is written on the core of you; it is in you. Just as "out of the heart's abundance, the mouth speaks".


You speak and act from what is in you (from what is written upon your heart).

If you're speaking of personality, or tendencies, then perhaps my tendency to rebel against pretty much everything is an example of what you mean.
To be precise, when I say rebel, I mean a kneejerk reaction to authority in general. I honestly do not like being told what to do. Very few people, even those who know me in real life, would attest to this, but that is because I am able to act in spite of how I feel. If my boss at work tells me to do something, I am able to rapidly come to the conclusion that maybe, it's a good idea to do what she says, instead of reacting like a child and saying "You're not the boss of me!"

So you see tam...even in the hypothetical where what you say is true...in MY case, it would mean that what was written on me was an inherent tendency to reject authority, especially if it hasn't earned my respect. This doesn't exclude God, so even if I were to one day hear God or Jesus, I wouldn't immediately bow to them.
I'd question them.

[tam]

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Not speaking of the literal organ.

The law being written on the heart, as in the law is written on the core of you; it is in you. Just as "out of the heart's abundance, the mouth speaks".

I see – that is an attempt to be poetic or metaphorical or to use flowery language. Why not, in debate, just say what we mean and mean what we say?

In this case, because the OP referred specifically to the law written upon the heart, and the OP said that Christians say this means that all men are without excuse to not believe in God.


I explained what that law is, and left it to the OP to explain further if that is what he meant with regard to that.

Is this to say that some 'law' is 'written' on the 'core' of humans? All humans or just some of them?

Some, not all. I said this in my first post.

Do the 'gods' favor certain people and not others? How can that be shown to be true – or is it just more speculation?

I'm not sure why you are asking me this question. I brought no issue of favoritism up, and I don't see how it applies to this particular subject.

You speak and act from what is in you (from what is written upon your heart).

I speak and act from what my mind / brain decides based upon what I have learned about the environment I inhabit. I see absolutely no evidence that any supernatural entities have influenced my thinking or programmed me by 'writing' any 'laws'.

I did not say that they had done so. I stated that there are people who do the requirements of the law (love) NATURALLY, and that such people are a law unto themselves. I was actually quoting from something Paul stated and my Lord corroborated; so I certainly cannot take credit for it. But we can also see people acting from love naturally in the world around us also - from various forms of belief or non-belief (unless we are taught to and/or deliberately refuse to see this in others).


Some people have hearts that are too hard. Even when people do have that law upon them, they don't always act according TO that law (hence, from the original example I cited from the Romans verse, the conscience of a person may convict them - they feel shame/guilt because they know what they have done was wrong/transgressed the law; or release them, because they acted in accordance with what is right/the law, of love).

If anyone suggests that I AM influenced by supernatural entities, I ask for evidence that contention is anything more than pure speculation on their part – and presumptuous assumption based on their personal beliefs rather than on evidence.

I don't think I made a suggestion for a non-believer (not to be mistaken with unbeliever), except that it might be there naturally.

So that some people do not need a written law to know that stealing or murder or harming others is wrong; some people do not need a written law to tell them to give to those in need.

Agreed. Some people are taught as children by their caregivers and social contacts to regard certain things as 'wrong' (as decided by their society). No gods are required for this.

Yes.

However, if a child is raised to be an executioner for a drug cartel or to be a suicide bomber for religious extremists, what is 'written on their heart' (to use the flowery language approach) is that killing is good and proper. Again, no gods (or supernatural entities) required.

This would be an occasion where a heart is too hard for the law (of love) to be written upon it. For whatever reason; including, sadly, that we (mankind) can teach our children TO harden their hearts.

Some people do need a written law to keep them from doing wrong, and some people do need a written law to tell them to give to those in need (just as an example).

Some who have debated here over the years indicated that the 'laws' of their religion are all that keep them from running amok, raping, killing, stealing, etc.

Some, even WITH written law do not refrain from 'doing wrong'. So what?

I was just trying to clarify what I meant by the law written upon the heart, by contrasting it with the law written on paper.


If one has the law written upon one's heart, one does not need a law written in a book to keep one from knowing that they should not steal or murder or turn away from someone in need.

Israel had forgotten the law (and their hearts were too hard for the law to be written upon them); hence they had to be given the written law. And even then their hearts were hard enough that allowances were made for them in the written law. Unlike their forefathers (such as Abraham or Abel) who had no written law, but still followed the law.

So goes the tale in religion-promotion literature.

Sure, but the OP brought up the law written upon the heart, which is found in that same literature, so that same literature could help explain the meaning of it.

I am assuming that you know that I was not speaking about the literal organ (just as I understand that my Lord and others who serve Him were not speaking about that literal organ), but hopefully the above clarifies a bit.

I understand that many people use flowery, poetic, metaphorical language attempting to conceal that they cannot substantiate their claims and stories. Notice how those can be used for 'wiggle room' when challenged.

[/quote]


That may be, but that is not the case here.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 16 by tam]

Tam, I opened a thread to consider the meaning of 'hard heart'

viewtopic.php?p=853024#853024

[Youkilledkenny]

[Replying to post 1 by The Transcended Omniverse]

First off, Christianity says that the law has been written in our hearts so that we instinctively know that God is real. I think this is nonsense.

A lot of what is said/taught is nonsense. When you live in a 'touchy feel good', conceptual, individualized belief system you'll have that.

The only way to arrive at the truth is through an honest open minded mindset.

Which is why God kicked out Adam and Eve. And why Christianity is pushing ID as science. They want open mindedness as long as it is their open mindedness.

Lastly, many Christians would tell me that I am blinding myself from God's presence and that I am sinning by doing this open minded research.

The absolute worst thing someone can do is listen to what other Christians SAY if you want to be closer to God. Watch what they do. Their actions are much less of a lie than their actions.

the only way God can be all loving and all just would be if I weren't to go to hell and that God would introduce himself to me after I die and give me the choice as to whether I want to serve him or not.

Christianity can't make that much sense. Otherwise, there's no need to give them money, listen to and do what they say, and follow the church and its leaders blindly. That's why faith is needed, not thinking. If you think too much, you will see it for the scam that it is. But follow blindly, well now....that's just fine with them.

[faith]

[Replying to post 1 by The Transcended Omniverse]


A little of a mish mash here.

Where did you get your information from?

[ttruscott]

There is nothing more that I or anyone else can do.

Of course that is the best you can do unless things change.

What you pointed out with evidence being all around is also another claim that I have remained open minded to and have remained undecided.

I did not point out that the evidence is all around which is the orthodox interpretation which falls flat on its face because if so much evidence were in existence so that no one had an excuse there would be Christians everywhere since forever!

I claim we all saw the actual creation of the physical universe. And no, I really don't expect you to believe it....a being little intrigued would be nice.