Does God cause evil?

[DanieltheDragon]

Does God cause evil?

Some assert that God causes no evil. Is there cause to believe this is true. Can this position be supported. Is the character described in the bible incapable of evil?

I would assert that a position that claims God created everything would make him the original cause of evil. That God cannot escape being the cause of evil since he created any and all situations in which evil would arise.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 1 by DanieltheDragon]

I guess first you would have to specify what you mean by 'cause' and 'evil'.

Certainly some people have been inspired by their understanding of God to go out and perform what most of us would deem as evil. i.e. any form of killing in the name of their god. In this case God has indeed been the inspiration and thus the indirect cause of the evil performed. If the person in question had instead worshipped the Easter Bunny, it's unlikely the same act of violence would have been performed.

If we are talking about God directly causing the evil (as in performing it Himself), then again I would say that many of us would deem some of the actions in the Bible done by God to be evil. i.e. flooding the planet in a moment of anger simply to get rid of the sinners, but causing widespread destruction and killing of those that could simply not be sinners (newborn babies, bunny rabbits, and kittens for example).

Maybe it doesn't matter whether we talk about indirect cause or direct cause after all, since it seems God is responsible for causing actions that many would deem as evil.

Now of course the argument starts over what is really evil. This invariably turns into a circular mess as God proponents claim that God can do no evil by definition. Even if Bob the bomber takes less innocent lives than God has, somehow Bob has performed evil yet God hasn't.

In the end it's kind of an unwinnable debate. When it becomes clear the god in question has either directly performed or inspired the performance of 'evil', God believers either move the goal post of what is evil or declare carte blanche no evil can be performed by their god.

[Willum]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

How long does God need to be defeated by a malevolent entity before it is obvious that it is utterly defeated?
ONE PERSONS' LIFETIME.

That's it.
God has not shown he can defeat Satan in 10,000 years. In fact Satan kicked his butt in the beginning, and has been winning ever since.
Has there been any reprieve, did Jesus change anything?

God demonstrated his inability to undo the damage Satan did in the Garden. God was forced to destroy the entire planet again, because he was helpless to undo that same damage.
Then he picked the cream of the crop of humanity, Noah and sons, who continued to continue the fallen tradition of Adam.

It seems to me God has been beguiled, deceived and defeated at every juncture in the Bible.

He talks a good victory, but in the end, he has promised to destroy the world again.

Who wins in global destruction?
Could it be... Satan?

Who is writing your Book, anyway?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 11 by benchwarmer]

Unfortunately, that is true about many believers. However, I take a different stance. I view god as loving' and when you love someone, you don't seek to coerce them with threats and horrible punishments. Clearly, the OT God does do horrible things to people. However, I don't that those accounts are valid revelations of God.

I view God as Cosmic Artist, who is luring, not coercing the world, to higher forms of beauty. We have genuine freedom. Therefore, God cannot decide for us. We have to decide for ourselves. Evil occurs because we, for a number of reasons, may make bad decisions as to how we will actualize God's aims for particular occasions.

Changes for good always overlap with chances for evil. God is seeking beauty, and that means complexity, and that means things can be some other way, can be used as not intended to be, which is where evil comes from. If you had a piano with only o ne note, nobody could ever screw up. However, with 88 keys, complexity, more beauty, there is considerable possibility of making racket, hitting wrong notes, etc. The only way God could have created a world with no evil in it would have been for God to have created a wholly simple world. But then there would be no beauty. You couldn't have a simple fire. So God is the great risk taker.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to hoghead1]

I view God as Cosmic Artist, who is luring, not coercing the world, to higher forms of beauty.

I other words you make it up and declare it to be so because this is the concept of God that appeals to you. "It's true because I personally choose to believe it," is not really an argument though, is it! Because it's not a statement of fact. It's a statement of personal belief.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to Tired of the Nonsense]

I view God as Cosmic Artist because no other model of God, certainly not God as Ruthless Moralist, Ruling Caesar, Unmoved Mover, do justice to our freedom and the great beauty of the world. I see a definite purpose in the universe; and that purpose is experience. We were created by god to be experiencing entities. That is our basic nature. That is why evolution has a definite direction, moves u0pward toward the actualization of more complex, sensitive beings.

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 15 by hoghead1]

HH, what you present seems quite reasonable if one presumes a creator god. Since I do not make that presupposition, I question the suggestion of a 'purpose' for the universe – but understand that it fits with some theistic views.

Regarding evolution having a 'definite direction', however, I must disagree. Complexity is not a measure of evolutionary success – which, from a biological perspective, means ability to survive and reproduce in the environment (and avoid extinction). Biologists say that 99% of all species that have ever existed have gone extinct. But some have been around for a LONG time – successfully adapting to environmental conditions and reproducing.

Crocodiles have been around for about 85 million years, Feather lice probably over 100 million years, Cockroaches about 200 to 300 million years. http://www.smithsonianmag.com and http://guides.library.harvard.edu/c.php ... &p=2072128

Some of those animals and others are likely to be able to survive (and have survived) environmental 'disasters' far better than more 'advanced' or 'complex' species – perhaps including 'nuclear winter'.

If an asteroid impact, intense volcanic activity, or nuclear wars wipe out the more complex or 'successful' species now existing (as has evidently happened more than once in the past), and cockroaches, let's say, survive -- what 'direction' of evolution is involved?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to Tired of the Nonsense]

I view God as Cosmic Artist because no other model of God, certainly not God as Ruthless Moralist, Ruling Caesar, Unmoved Mover, do justice to our freedom and the great beauty of the world. I see a definite purpose in the universe; and that purpose is experience. We were created by god to be experiencing entities. That is our basic nature. That is why evolution has a definite direction, moves u0pward toward the actualization of more complex, sensitive beings.

Presumably by "freedom" you are referring to free will. In what way is the free will that you presume that God has given us in any way different from the free will we would have naturally if no such Being existed to begin with?

[American Deist]

"It's true because I personally choose to believe it," is not really an argument though, is it! Because it's not a statement of fact. It's a statement of personal belief.

The same could be said of atheism.

[Zzyzx]

.

"It's true because I personally choose to believe it," is not really an argument though, is it! Because it's not a statement of fact. It's a statement of personal belief.

The same could be said of atheism.

It must be REALLY difficult for some people to comprehend that non-belief is NOT a belief. 'I don't believe your god tales' is NOT a belief system.

Simplifying: Is 'I don't believe in fairies' a belief system or personal belief? Change disbelief from 'fairies' to 'gods' and it does not become a belief system.

[theophile]

[Replying to post 1 by DanieltheDragon]

The Hebrew "evil" (from Genesis 2, Isaiah, etc) is "adversity."

"Good" is what is supportive and beneficial to life. "Evil" is what is adverse to life or creates hardship.

I think the first question, then, is who was it that first introduced evil into the world.

Gen 1 shows God doing good, i.e., things that are supportive and beneficial to life (God works to shape and fill the world with life).

Gen 3 is when evil is introduced. It is the result of sin, which is human in its origin.

So that answers that.

The next question is, now that sin has entered into the world, and through it, adversity, will God cause further adversity in order to get things back on track?

The answer to this is yes. See the flood as the most extreme example. God unleashed a hell-of-a-lot of evil upon the world in order to cleanse it of an evil (human) order.

So to the OP, yes, God does cause evil. God is not the originator of it, but God does cause it when it suits God's purposes - which is, again, to do good. i.e., God will cause evil whenever it is necessary for the support and benefit of life more broadly.

The hard reality is that sometimes you need to take life to save life. Many of us refuse to accept this due to our "modern sensibilities."