Body/ spirit

[dio9]

from another line the question rose, are we spirit with bodies or bodies with spirit ?
Its a philosophical question for me , I'm for the first, but would sure like to know what others think on this. Do you see the difference? Spirit is the boss, not the body, spirit is not servant of body . The reversal of spirit and body rule is the original problem of humanity. All major religious thought directs restoration of the proper dominion of spirit over body. Is there anyone here who supports the proposition that body rules spirit?

[marco]

from another line the question rose, are we spirit with bodies or bodies with spirit ?
Its a philosophical question for me , I'm for the first, but would sure like to know what others think on this. Do you see the difference? Spirit is the boss, not the body, spirit is not servant of body . The reversal of spirit and body rule is the original problem of humanity. All major religious thought directs restoration of the proper dominion of spirit over body. Is there anyone here who supports the proposition that body rules spirit?

I suppose it is possible to reject gods but accept a spirit world or the existence of angels. The usual position for non-theists would be that the body is all and at death we are reduced to a memory, and dust.

The fighting spirit in us, when we're not yet buried, is no more than a description of bravery or any other quality. It is nice to accept that when our body perishes, something rises from the ashes, like a phoenix. Sadly, hope does not always materialise into truth.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]

You really would need to define your terms, I've yet to meet two people in a row that define the term "spirit" in the same way. I have to admit I can't tell from what you said, what exactly you mean when you refer to a person's "spirit".

For Jehovah's Witness a person's spirit refers simply to the life force from God that keeps them alive. It is not a part of them in that it carries any part of their personality. Rather like electricity animates or provides the power for an appliance to work, God' spirit is simply the life force that allows living thngs (humans or animals) to function.

The word "spirit" in scripture is used in many other ways, including to describe a person's attitude.

[Willum]

Well, looking at it logically, let's look at what God created:

He went through the additional trouble to create a physical body. He must have had reason to do that when the spirit became so important afterwards.

Clearly the spirit needs a body for some reason, otherwise we would not need a body at all.

[onewithhim]

from another line the question rose, are we spirit with bodies or bodies with spirit ?
Its a philosophical question for me , I'm for the first, but would sure like to know what others think on this. Do you see the difference? Spirit is the boss, not the body, spirit is not servant of body . The reversal of spirit and body rule is the original problem of humanity. All major religious thought directs restoration of the proper dominion of spirit over body. Is there anyone here who supports the proposition that body rules spirit?

There is confusion only when belief in a conscious "mini me" existing within us is brought into the picture. It is a spurious, pagan belief that a conscious part of us leaves the physical body at death and continues living. This is not taught in the Bible. If we realize that the "spirit" that is in us is merely the force from God which enlivens us, we can understand what the truth is....that we are bodies with spirit.

Did God make us with useless bodies? Did he not, instead, give us brains for intellect and reason? Our bodies are marvelous creations, complicated and wonderful. Our "spirit" is simply that vital force that keeps us alive. It is, one could say, analogous to the current in the wires leading to a light bulb, causing the bulb to shine.

God created us with physical bodies, and he wants us to use them in honorable ways. He wants us to be his friends and listen to his rules and standards. He planned for us to live here on this physical planet and his plans have not been scuttled. It is sad that those who have been representing God and the Bible have steered people away from what God really has in store for humans.

"Thus says the LORD, who created the heavens, the God who formed the earth & established it and did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited..." (Isaiah 45:18)

"The earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:9b, NASB)

"Evildoers will be cut off, but those who wait for the LORD [YHWH], they will inherit the land...and dwell in it forever." (Psalm 37:9,29, NASB)


So the idea of us being "spirits with bodies" is unsound. Many people base their idea of conscious spirits leaving our bodies at death on Ecclesiastes 12:7. How many times have we heard this quoted? "The dust returns to the earth...and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it." Wow, we say....doesn't that show that we have a spirit? No, it just says that God gave us spirit, and, truly, that spirit is actually a life-giving force that keeps us breathing. People take that one verse and use it to prove that we live on after death, but they totally ignore what the writer of Ecclesiastes wrote beforehand in chapter 9!

"The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." (Eccles.9:5)



If we pay attention to the Scriptures and try to disregard what the religious institutions have been feeding us, we can see that we truly are bodies with spirit, IMHO.

[onewithhim]

from another line the question rose, are we spirit with bodies or bodies with spirit ?
Its a philosophical question for me , I'm for the first, but would sure like to know what others think on this. Do you see the difference? Spirit is the boss, not the body, spirit is not servant of body . The reversal of spirit and body rule is the original problem of humanity. All major religious thought directs restoration of the proper dominion of spirit over body. Is there anyone here who supports the proposition that body rules spirit?

I suppose it is possible to reject gods but accept a spirit world or the existence of angels. The usual position for non-theists would be that the body is all and at death we are reduced to a memory, and dust.

The fighting spirit in us, when we're not yet buried, is no more than a description of bravery or any other quality. It is nice to accept that when our body perishes, something rises from the ashes, like a phoenix. Sadly, hope does not always materialise into truth.

Instead of a spurious spirit that has consciousness and lives on after death, we have the hope of being resurrected on "the last day" by the Son of God (John 5:28; John 6:44). It is clear that if we die, that is not the end.

[2timothy316]

Along with JWs and OWHs posts which are spot on. It was plain to me a long time ago that who a person is must be contained in a person's brain and not some spirit force. Why not? Because of what happens to people that have complex brain damage. There are people that have lost some functions of their body and even the ability to to think in some way. If a person's consciousness was a spirit then no physical harm could come to it. Also, if a person's consciousness is damaged here does that mean that the part that no longer works is now in Heaven? Is there an angel in Heaven with mental disabilities waiting for the 'other part' to arrive?

So I can only conclude that is a person's spirit not a 'spirit creature' or part of the spiritual universe but a person's spirit is a part of the physical universe. Like electricity. No one knows how to revive a dead human brain. We know electrical currents have something to do with it. But we [as humans] have no real understanding of how to make the brain start up again. All we know is once that current is gone, there is no way to get it back.

"His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish." Ecc 12:7. Thoughts are contained with a person's body not their spirit.

The conservation of energy states, "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it transforms from one form to another." So a person's spirit energy goes out like a light. "A consequence of the law of conservation of energy is that a perpetual motion machine cannot exist. That is to say, no system without an external energy supply can deliver an unlimited amount of energy to its surroundings."

Spiritual creatures can live without being sustained and are not affected by by the same laws of our physical universe. They are truly immortal. Yet when it comes to us with 'souls' no where in the Bible will you see the words 'immortal' and 'soul' together. Not once. http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=immortal+soul

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]




[center]The force they call "life"[/center]

For Jehovah's Witness a person's spirit refers simply to the life force from God that keeps them alive.

The word "spirit" in scripture is used in many other ways, including to describe a person's attitude.

It looks like the JW single out ONE usages from many for the word "spirit" and apparently, it's indistinguishable from the word "life".

If something has "spirit" it's "alive". No spirit, no life.
Got it.

And the other uses of the word "spirit" don't count.
Alrighty then.

I'd say that they should replace ALL instances of "spirit" in the bible with the word "life", then. Or as our dear friend here wrote : LIFE FORCE"

[center]may the force be with you[/center]

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]




[center]The force they call "life"[/center]

For Jehovah's Witness a person's spirit refers simply to the life force from God that keeps them alive.

The word "spirit" in scripture is used in many other ways, including to describe a person's attitude.

It looks like the JW single out ONE usages from many for the word "spirit" and apparently, it's indistinguishable from the word "life".

If something has "spirit" it's "alive". No spirit, no life.
Got it.

And the other uses of the word "spirit" don't count.
Alrighty then.

I'd say that they should replace ALL instances of "spirit" in the bible with the word "life", then. Or as our dear friend here wrote : LIFE FORCE"

[center]may the force be with you[/center]

Glad you got the first point. Other understandings of the term "spirit" depend on context. Wouldn't you agree that context is important? For example, we know that there are angels, or, spirit persons. We wouldn't call them "life forces." I think the bottom line is: there is no use of the word "spirit" to designate an invisible conscious entity within a human being that leaves upon the human being's death and continues to live.

I like "may the Force be with you"! I always thought of the correlation between the Force of Star Wars and Jehovah's powerful Force that accomplishes His will.


.

[tam]

Peace to you!

"The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." (Eccles.9:5)

Being conscious of nothing does not mean that one has ceased to exist. It simply means that one is not conscious of anything. A person in a coma could exist, yet be conscious of nothing. A person under anesthesia can be conscious of nothing, and yet still exist.





On top of that:

The flesh counts for nothing. We are spirit within these vessels.

We are wearing the long garment of skin (this body with sin and death in it) that God fashioned for Adam and Eve after they ate and tried to cover their nakedness on their own. But we will be given the white robe (the new body with NO sin or death in it).



There is also the verse where Christ makes a distinction between the body and soul. He says that we should not fear the one who can kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. Fear instead the one that can destroy both body AND soul in gehenna.


Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28


I am aware that soul is often (but not always) used to describe the whole person (or animal). But in the case above, Christ makes a distinction between body and the soul.


And of course John sees and hears the souls under the altar in Revelation:


When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?� And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been. Rev 6:9-11




Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy