The Gospels..... those 'Difficult' verses!

[oldbadger]

I don't get it.
Why, for instance, would the gospel of Mark include an anecdote about Jesus being told that his Mother and brothers had come to speak with him, waiting outside, and Jesus told his followers 'You are my Mother and my brothers'. ??

Mark: And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? {3:34} And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

There must be many other verses which Christians could find difficulty with.... do you know any more? This is intended as a debate, obviously, but a list of these strange verses would be useful....

[oldbadger]

I don't get it.
Why, for instance, would the gospel of Mark include an anecdote about Jesus being told that his Mother and brothers had come to speak with him, waiting outside, and Jesus told his followers 'You are my Mother and my brothers'. ??

This is a "difficult" verse because Jesus is being abominably rude about his mother in particular. He seems to have forgotten God's command: Honour thy father and thy mother. This arrogant dismissal of his own family does the man no favours.

We might also call to mind the impertinent tone used when telling his mother he didn't see what shortage of wine had to do with him.

"Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come."

Allowances, of course, must be made for the times where woman were possibly expected to shut up, especially in church. A modern writer may have written:

Jesus hugged his mother and said: "Listen mum, you know I'd do anything for you but this is a little premature for me. All the same, seeing as how it's you that asked, I will do it."

Oh.... thankyou!
Your own particular perception of those two verses is personal to you, but I could identify that those verses could cause some criticism (from you).

There is another short lisdt of verses that you might scrutinise and comment on as well?

Now, ....question...... do you think that as the author wrote those verses that he was being genuine, writing an account that he believed., was not lying?

Thankyou for your reply.... I hope you come back with an answer to thre above.

[oldbadger]

Here is one...
Mark {11:13} And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but
leaves; for the time of figs was not [yet. ]{11:14} And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard [it.

The next day that fig tree was dead.
Now, my difficulty with this could be that Jesus could have been accused that he broke ancient law ordained by God in deliberatley destroying a fruit tree.

Persionally I don't perceive that Jesus gained too many 'good-guy' points from this action.

Do I think that the author was writing truth, or believed that he was? Absolutely!

Have you got any verses that don't particular paint Jesus in brilliant praise? If so, please post them up because I need them..... badly!

[oldbadger]

[Replying to post 12 by oldbadger]

Here is another.....

Mark{15:34} And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do I believe that this verse is a true account of what Jesus said?
Yes.... although Magdalene and Salome were far off, Jesus cried out. Maybe Joseph was right by the cross at this time? etc etc...

Yes..... I believe the account was true.

These verses, the 'difficult' verses, are some of the most valuable verses (for me). Can you figure out why?

[tam]

[Replying to post 5 by oldbadger]

He didn't say that good friends are of more value than bad family. (although I think there are many people who agree with that sentiment)

I see no problem with this verse. He spoke the truth.


Peace to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

And peace to you.

Look at the two sentences, above....
You agree that many find difficultry with that sentence.
You personally don't.

You misquoted me (and you also attributed something to Christ that He did not say)

Christ did not say good friends are of more value than bad family. He said,

“Who is My mother, and who are My brothers?� Pointing to His disciples, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers. For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."


He simply spoke truthfully.

Now, Marco has replied with the reason that he (and some others) consider this to be a difficult verse.

So from Marco:

This is a "difficult" verse because Jesus is being abominably rude about his mother in particular. He seems to have forgotten God's command: Honour thy father and thy mother. This arrogant dismissal of his own family does the man no favours.

In this case, the will of His mother and brothers is not the will of His Father. His mother and brothers are coming to take Him in hand; and prevent Him from carrying out the will of His Father.


Again, He is simply speaking the truth.


If people consider that to be rude, then so be it. But He cannot very well tell us to love Him more than mother, brother, sister, uncle, etc... if He does just the opposite by loving mother, brother, sister, etc, more than God; obeying mother, brother, sister, etc, OVER God.


He did not shun his family (though I'm not sure the same could be said of at least some of them... considering that He said at one point, that He had no place to lay his head). He simply did not allow them to stop Him from doing the work that His father had given Him. Including speaking in truth.


And truth - though some might consider it to be rude at times - comes from LOVE. He loved His disciples and His family enough to speak the truth to them. And because He loved and honored His Father (God), submitting to the will OF His Father - and not allowing anyone (including mother, brother, sister, etc) to prevent Him from doing the will and work of His Father - He was able to save His mother and brothers as well.


Though it is clear that His brothers (in the flesh) did not believe Him early on, they came to believe in Him, as James makes clear.


Had He faltered or allowed them to take him 'in hand' (to tone it down, or convince Him that He had misunderstood the will of God), how could that have happened? How could He have helped them at all if He lied to them or 'watered' down the truth He was given by His Father to speak and to share?




Peace again to you, and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[marco]

Now, ....question...... do you think that as the author wrote those verses that he was being genuine, writing an account that he believed., was not lying?

I think the fact that the verses do not portray Christ as a sympathetic figure probably means there is truth in them. The author might embellish to eulogise but I can't see any reason why he would issue an account he disagreed with.

[marco]

Here is one...
Mark {11:13} And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but
leaves;

It paints Jesus as petulant, like an angry golfer who breaks his club. Of course he should have known the fig tree would be without fruit but then, if he was from Mars, that information may not have filtered through.


Jesus overstates his case in Luke: 14: 26 " If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." What happened to the rule of respecting one's parents?

At 12 he went missing for three days:

Luke tells us: After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.�

“Why were you searching for me?� he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?�

Pride? Contempt? But this story is probably fabricated to indicate the young lad showed early promise, living rough for three days. Parental worries would be irrelevant.

[William]

[Replying to post 14 by tam]

There is always going to be an immediate problem when the fallacy of misquoting/misrepresenting happens.

People forget that the context is important and taking things out of context might appear to make someone's argument legitimate, but only through a subtle deceptiveness and yearning to be always right about belief or non belief.

Stick to the story is the best policy.

2000 years of twisting and turning along the less-than-strait-and-narrow path is what has shaped Christendom and painted a strange and foreign picture of Jesus in the image of some weird effigy which the establishment can better identify with.

All white and clothed in finery and brushed hair and clean hands freshly manicured trimmed beard etc...

Family most often has the greatest hold on an individual and indeed I have noticed that family gives itself the right to treat one in ways which friends would never dare to think of doing if they wanted to remain friends.

Mothers can be very demanding, overbearing and have underlying feelings that they own their children just by the fact that their bodies incubated them.

The best respect given is that which does not look the other way when the people who think they have the right to your respect (be they parents or any other type of authority figure) are acting in ways in which respect is not deserved.

[bjs]

[Replying to post 1 by oldbadger]

Difficult in what sense?

Difficult to accept/follow in daily life? In Luke 6:29-30 Jesus said, “If someone takes your cloak, don not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand is back.�

Difficult to understand? In Mark 13 Jesus appears to mix teachings about the end of the age with a teaching about the destruction of Jerusalem. It is similar to the prophet Joel, who compared the army of the Lord to a swarm of locusts, or maybe he was comparing the swarm of locusts to the army of the Lord. I’m not sure. Similarly, Jesus used the destruction of the coming Temple as a lesson about the end of the age, but it is hard to tell when is talking about which event.

[marco]

In this case, the will of His mother and brothers is not the will of His Father. His mother and brothers are coming to take Him in hand; and prevent Him from carrying out the will of His Father.

This stands in stark contradiction to the willingness with which Mary accepted her role as a virgin mother. Given she had been visited by an angel it is inconceivable she forgot that her son was divinely inspired. Either we accept that Mary was party to God's plan from the incarnation or we take her to be ignorant of her son's actions. This could only be so if he didn't trouble to tell her. Yet she was aware of his abilities at Cana.

Something addeth not up, methinks.

[oldbadger]

You misquoted me (and you also attributed something to Christ that He did not say)

Tam, my 'take' that Jesus clearly said that loyal or good friends beat bad family is absolutely as clear as daylight!

“Who is My mother, and who are My brothers?� Pointing to His disciples, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers. For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."

No Tam..... the above is clearly a Christian edit, imo. See what the first report says in G-Mark:
{3:33} And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? {3:34} And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! {3:35} For whosoever shall do the will of God,
the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

There, as clear as can be..... Jesus and JohntB both wanted a return to the old laws that protected all, and the poor, long ignored by fat, greedy, dishonrest, corrupt, quisling priests. And the WILL OF GOD was exactly that, which, if you like, wopuld have retirned heaven to earth, I expect.

Wow! Those two contending verses....... yet another p[erceived difficulty?

Peace again to you, and to your households, your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

And to you and yours.
from OB, a tatty old pagan.