Does disbelief in the atoning cross

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Elijah John
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Does disbelief in the atoning cross

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

Is it fair to suggest that if one does not believe Jesus died to "pay for" our sins then one must have contempt for Jesus?

Or to suggest that "we too would have him crucified"?

Is believing that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, the only way to find meaning in an otherwise horrific event like his crucifixion?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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rikuoamero
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Post #31

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 27 by Benoni]
Disbelieve is man's nature when it comes to believing in God.
Which explains why so many people growing up under Christian parents don't believe in God...wait a minute...
Carnal man is dead to the realm of God and cannot see, hear, smell, or touch the realm of god for when Adam died we all died to that realm.
So Jacob didn't wrestle with God, Elijah didn't go up to heaven?
Oh sure I believe the glory of God was in his memories that is why it took so long for natural death to finally happen.
So God's glory has an expiration date, like on a carton of milk? It can go sour?
And memories can sustain physical life? Prettttty sure that's not that works.
The second death will kill all death.
Anyone else see the oxymoron in that sentence, or is it just me?
Image

Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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marco
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Post #32

Post by marco »

Benoni wrote:
Disbelieve is man's nature when it comes to believing in God. Carnal man is dead to the realm of God and cannot see, hear, smell, or touch the realm of god for when Adam died we all died to that realm. When Adam ate of the fruit he died. It took 930 years to die physically but spiritually he was dead. Oh sure I believe the glory of God was in his memories that is why it took so long for natural death to finally happen. but we are all dead in trespasses and sins. That is why the second death or death killed by death must happen so we will live in the life of Christ without death. The second death will kill all death.

How can carnal man chose Christ? It’s a spiritual experience to choose Christ. Carnal man is dead in trespasses and sin. it takes the power of God's Spirit to quicken or make man alive to hear spiritual things.

1 Corinthians 2:
14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.



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ttruscott
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Re: Does disbelief in the atoning cross

Post #33

Post by ttruscott »

dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Yes in answer to your third point The Crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is the whole meaning of Christianity in a nutshell.
Well I do agree....because I do not think any good works can save a person from their enslavement to evil nor from the legal judgement against their sin. IF good works do not access salvation then they are of infinitely less importance than that which does save, faith in the Christ as saviour...Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Benoni
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Post #34

Post by Benoni »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 27 by Benoni]
Disbelieve is man's nature when it comes to believing in God.
Which explains why so many people growing up under Christian parents don't believe in God...wait a minute...
Carnal man is dead to the realm of God and cannot see, hear, smell, or touch the realm of god for when Adam died we all died to that realm.
Image

Jacob was already called by God
Oh sure I believe the glory of God was in his memories that is why it took so long for natural death to finally happen.
So God's glory has an expiration date, like on a carton of milk? It can go sour?
So explain what God's glory is now?
And memories can sustain physical life? Prettttty sure that's not that works.
The second death will kill all death.
Anyone else see the oxymoron in that sentence, or is it just me?
I am quoting scripture: The fourth horse, the Pale Horse. "And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, come and see. And I looked, and lo a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with the sword (Word of God), and with hunger (lack of spiritual food), and with death, and with the beasts of the earth (our beastly carnal nature." (Rev. 6:7-8).

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Re: Does disbelief in the atoning cross

Post #35

Post by Blastcat »

[center]Im busted.. I have a real soft spot.. don't hate me.. It's just a thing.
Long story, really.
[/center]

rikuoamero wrote:
If Christ be not risen, then our faith is in vain.
Okee dokee then.

rikuoamero wrote:
I see it quite frequently on the bus here in little ol' Ireland.
Im so in love with redheads green eyes.. freckles.. go on though you lucky you.. not FAIR..

rikuoamero wrote:
Of course, the logic of that statement holds true for anything.
Logic smogic...don't attack them redheads.. colleens..
You shouldn't have mentioned Ireland....

Im in love with all of them.
So.. yeah.. god.. booooo.

Oh.. and youre right..

rikuoamero wrote:
If Muhammed be not God's Last Prophet, then our faith is in vain. I don't think I'll find too many Christians willing to agree that Muhammed was a prophet, not when he says that the resurrection was a deception.
I think I agree.. but gee whiz.. red hair

Green eyes...that wild cray cray accent... I mean
er.. yah.. youre right about what you said.

Christians booooooooo.


:)

Elijah John
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Re: Does disbelief in the atoning cross

Post #36

Post by Elijah John »

dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Yes in answer to your third point The Crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is the whole meaning of Christianity in a nutshell.
If that is the case, then why didn't Jesus just present himself to the Temple priests and offer himself as a human sacrifice?

Also, if it is as you say, then Jesus preached in vain. Especially in his most important Sermon on the Mount, where he taught the Lord's prayer, reiterated the Golden rule, and gave us the Beattitudes.

Nary a mention of his impending death, or that he came to "pay for" the sins of humanity. Jesus preached the FATHER'S mercy, not his own heroism.

Have you considered the possibility that the crucifixion was not part of Jesus own plan? But rather a Messianic mission gone haywire? And nonetheless, God brought good out of it by vindicating Jesus' teaching ministry with resurrection?

During that teaching ministry, Jesus taught that God is a merciful Father, who can be approached directly without Temple mediation. That is implied in the Lord's prayer, the Beattitudes and the Parables.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
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Re: Does disbelief in the atoning cross

Post #37

Post by Elijah John »

[quote="rikuoamero]
If Christ be not risen, then our faith is in vain.
That sounds like one of those Christian cliche's that are often accepted without thought, without question just because Paul said it.

So let's examine that statement now.

If the Resurrection didn't happen, then what is actually "in vain". Does no resurrection disprove or invalidate Jesus teachings? His teachings about God, God's mercy and how we should treat our fellow humans?

If I recall my Bible readings correctly, many Biblical characters had faith in God before Christ even died.

I would ask the preacher Paul, was their faith '"in vain"?

Sound's to me like another one of Paul's non-sequitors, along the lines of "if one could be saved by the Law, then Christ died in vain."

To adapt Pauls' own analogy, (or was it the author of Hebrews?) wasn't Abraham saved by faith not in Christ or Christ's death and resurrection, but in El Shaddai, (YHVH) and in his Elohim's commands?

Could it be that Jesus died a martyr bearing witness to the Truth as he saw it, and that it is Paul's theology which is superfluous and "in vain"?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Does disbelief in the atoning cross

Post #38

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote: [quote="rikuoamero]
If Christ be not risen, then our faith is in vain.
That sounds like one of those Christian cliche's that are often accepted without thought, without question just because Paul said it.

So let's examine that statement now.

If the Resurrection didn't happen, then what is actually "in vain". Does no resurrection disprove or invalidate Jesus teachings?

Well it would invalidate his teaching that he was going to be killed but then would be ressurected three days later. So yes, it would mean he was at the very least a little bit crazy; and for bible believing Christians it would invalidate the reason he came to earth, namely to give his life as a ransom to save mankind.

Jesus death and resurrection is the KEY to everthing, nothing in the bible can make truly sense without it and it is for this reason Jehovah’s people commemorate the occasion of his death is our only religion holiday.


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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Elijah John
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Re: Does disbelief in the atoning cross

Post #39

Post by Elijah John »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote: [quote="rikuoamero]
If Christ be not risen, then our faith is in vain.
That sounds like one of those Christian cliche's that are often accepted without thought, without question just because Paul said it.

So let's examine that statement now.

If the Resurrection didn't happen, then what is actually "in vain". Does no resurrection disprove or invalidate Jesus teachings?

Well it would invalidate his teaching that he was going to be killed but then would be ressurected three days later. So yes, it would mean he was at the very least a little bit crazy;
Have you considered the possibility those words, that "prediction" that Jesus would be killed and resurrected three days later, was put on his lips retrospectively by the Gospel Evangelist? Not dishonesty pre-se. But rather "poetic liscence" perhaps, in service of the "ends justifying the means" Makes for a good narrative, and furthers the Evangelist's agenda.
JehovahsWitness wrote: and for bible believing Christians it would invalidate the reason he came to earth, namely to give his life as a ransom to save mankind.
A ransom "paid to" whom? To save mankind from what? Also, that claim ignores Jesus own stated purpose that he came to "bear witness to the Truth". He said that in his trial before Pilate.

Also, when Jesus read from the Isaiah scroll, he did say that he came to "set the captives free"... Admittedly that could fit into your "ransom" theory, but how does Jesus liberate? By dying to "pay for" the sins of humanity? Or by teaching the Truth. (the "Truth shall set you free")

Also, the fact that you have an interpretation of the Bible does not make you or your organization the only "Bible believing Christians", yours is an interpretation filtered through the lens of John and Paul. Evangelicals basically have the same lens. It is no accident that Evangelicals pass out Gospels of John when they witness, or that their "Four Spritual Laws" pamphlet recommends that one begin their Bible studies, not with Genesis, not with Matthew, not with Mark the earliest Gospel, but rather, with John.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Jesus death and resurrection is the KEY to everthing, nothing in the bible can make truly sense without it and it is for this reason
A bold claim, does not make sense to Evangelicals and Jehovah's Witnesses perhaps, when you (collective "you") see everything with a Johannine and Pauline lens, you see Jesus everywhere. Even in pages where he does not reside. You know who does permeate the pages of both Testaments? Jehovah, and Jehovah's Holy Spirit, who empowers Jesus too.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Jehovah’s people commemorate the occasion of his death is our only religion holiday.
JW
Sorry, you do not speak for all of Jehovah's people, I too am the "redeemed of Jehovah" and I say so. ;) Jews, are Jehovah's people as are all Christians. (Yes, even Trinitarians) And perhaps, beyond.

As for which holiday you JWs choose to observe, that is your business. I know, you are illustrating your emphasis by stressing the importance of Jesus death.

And that works for you and your group. But your interpretation does not work for me. What works for me is to see Jesus death as his martyrdom, the terrible price he paid for preaching direct access to God, preaching an alternative to the Temple, and for disrupting the Temple by overturning the tables.

I think our differences (mine with Evangelicals and Jehovah's Witnesses) stem from the fact that you folks have that Johannine and Pauline lens, which includes the book of Revelation (Johannine). With that lens, people will more likely see Jesus even in the Old Testament.

My lens is the "Old" Testament, and the Synoptics. (Especially the Ten Commandments, and the Golden Rule) With that lens, I am able to find value even in the writings of John and Paul, in spite of their being "wrong";) sometimes.

Sometimes times they hit the bulls eye, as in John 17.3. At such times they are in harmony with the "OT" and the Synoptics.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Does disbelief in the atoning cross

Post #40

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote:
A ransom "paid to" whom? To save mankind from what?

Jesus gave his life to save mankind from sin and death.


Jehovah's original purpose was never that humans live for a while, grow old, get sick and eventually die; no when He created Adam and Eve he wanted them to live forever and populate the planet with their perfect human offspring.

Sadly Adam and Eve rebelled and brought sin and death not only to themselves but to their offspring. Jehovah in his immense love for humans asked His son if he would be willing to offer his life for the children of Adam, Jesus willingly accepted to buy back the human race so we do not have the eventuality of facing eternal death. It is for this reason, especially during this holiday season, Jehovah's Witnesses are especially consciouse of what was and will aways be God's greatest gift.

We have the happy hope of life, peace and prosperity on this our planet earth restored to condition like the Garden of Eden all thanks to Jesus!


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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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