Romans 13:1 and Nazi Germany

[Justin108]

Romans 13:1 "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God."


A few comments/questions regarding Romans 13:1

1) My click-bait title. So I am to understand that every single government authority, no matter how corrupt or immoral, was established by God? Including Nazi Germany?

2) Would making people establish governments not violate free will? Was it not the free-will decisions of founding members to establish these parties?

3) Does Romans 13:1 not sound suspiciously like a means of using religion to control the masses? Does it not seem like Paul is using Christianity to pacify Christians into submission to the Roman government?

[JehovahsWitness]

Romans 13:1 "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God."


A few comments/questions regarding Romans 13:1

1) My click-bait title. So I am to understand that every single government authority, no matter how corrupt or immoral, was established by God? Including Nazi Germany?

2) Would making people establish governments not violate free will? Was it not the free-will decisions of founding members to establish these parties?

3) Does Romans 13:1 not sound suspiciously like a means of using religion to control the masses? Does it not seem like Paul is using Christianity to pacify Christians into submission to the Roman government?

I will share the Jehovah's Witness interpretation of the verses.

We believe that when Paul says there is no authority "except from God" it means there exists no authority that He (God) is not presently allowing. Just as he is allowing wickedness he is allowing government. Some are good, some not so good and some are downright evil. But he allows them to exist. For now.


2) Would making people establish governments not violate free will? Was it not the free-will decisions of founding members to establish these parties? We JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES do not understand the verses to mean God "made" the government (appointed, set up and directed). He has allowed humans to exercise their own free will and they (humans) have chosen to set up governments.



3) Does Romans 13:1 not sound suspiciously like a means of using religion to control the masses? Not by the Jehovah's Witnesse understanding but I do believe some have interpreted the verses to mean all governments on earth represent God, and thus should be recognized as having absolute power.

Does it not seem like Paul is using Christianity to pacify Christians into submission to the Roman government? Jesus himself said his followers should be peaceful and peacemakers. He never endorsed armed revolution against the acting powers of his day (The Romans) indeed, indicated that Christians should "pay cesars things to cesar" meaning amongst other things, pay taxes the doing of which represents submission to at the very least their fiscal laws.

Jesus however at the same time indicated submission to secular authorities should be relative not absolute. This is the JW position.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

[Justin108]

We believe that when Paul says there is no authority "except from God" it means there exists no authority that He (God) is not presently allowing.

"Allowing"? Romans is pretty precise here - "there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God". There is a marked difference between allowing something and establishing something.

It seems to me like you're selectively interpreting Romans 13:1 in a way to absolve God of any responsibility. A bit dishonest, wouldn't you say?

We JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES do not understand the verses to mean God "made" the government

Then JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES don't seem to know what "establish" means.

According to the NWT (you know, the translation Jehovah's Witnesses use)

Romans 13:1 Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.

The NWT is even clearer on this. "Placed in there relative positions by God". There is no way you can spin "placed by God" to mean "allowed by God".

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

from God" it means there exists no authority that He (God) is not presently allowing. Just as he is allowing wickedness he is allowing government. Some are good, some not so good and some are downright evil. But he allows them to exist. For now.

If I allow a pack of trained attack dogs that I owned to kill kids at a park. Would I not be responsible?

Whether it's allowed or established makes no difference Paul was clearly not thinking things through when he wrote those words.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 3 by Justin108]

We interpre the word "placed" to mean allowed. Each one can interpret scripture as they see fit, I'm just sharing ours.

[1213]

...
3) Does Romans 13:1 not sound suspiciously like a means of using religion to control the masses? Does it not seem like Paul is using Christianity to pacify Christians into submission to the Roman government?

I understand it means, we should obey law when it is good.

It is also good to notice, Romans put Paul into jail and killed Jesus. I think that kind of shows that disciples should not accept everything the government wants.

[Youkilledkenny]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

1) My click-bait title. So I am to understand that every single government authority, no matter how corrupt or immoral, was established by God? Including Nazi Germany?

That seems a stretch but hey, the Church did side with, and even assist, the Nazis in order, it seems, to eliminate the Jews. So many what you say is indeed accurate.

3) Does Romans 13:1 not sound suspiciously like a means of using religion to control the masses?

A lot/much/(all?) of the bible seems to do this to various degrees. After all, Christianity seems to be the perfect business model: "Give us your money and lives and you won't go to Hell." What's a better business plan than that?

Does it not seem like Paul is using Christianity to pacify Christians into submission to the Roman government?

There is much in the New Testament that seems politically motivated. Odds are, as far as I can see, this is much, much, much more likely than a divine god-man walkin' about causing issues and raising the dead.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

I have tried to discuss this before:

I would submit that "Whenever two or more of you are gathered in His name..." the covenant for freewill is abrogated.

People in mass, obviously do not have free will, but a group will, like an election.
Certainly that is God's purview?

So, in this light, every government that claims Christianity, Judaism or Moslem, is acting in his will.

If not, when is God allowed to act?
That is the question.

If he isn't allowed to act, then what good is he? (Sorry for the pragmatic tone - no disrespect intended, but it is hard to say otherwise.

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 3 by Justin108]

We interpre the word "placed" to mean allowed.

Why?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 3 by Justin108]

We interpre the word "placed" to mean allowed.

Why?

Because logically, if God is omnipotent, anything that exists in any position is there because he allows it.


Critical thinking,

JW