Are School Vouchers a Violation of the US Constitution?

[2Dbunk]

The voucher program is spreading. With DeVos as Trump's secretary of Education, a voucher supporter, the program will be more enabled. Is this a good idea, or is it the beginning of the end of the public school system?

Is this what Jefferson had in mind when he initiated public education in America. Back then only the elite received an education. It appears that is where we may now be heading.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 9 by bluethread]

Public education also appears to have economic and social benefits. Especially in a modern industrialized nation where physical labor, manufacturing, and farming are shrinking areas for gainful employment. The next generation needs engineers and coders not millers and welders. We are already importing foreign workers because our education system is severely lacking in the first place. It's not so much illegal immigration that is stealing American jobs but legal immigration.

If we kill access to education we likely kill our future economy.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 9 by bluethread]

Public education also appears to have economic and social benefits. Especially in a modern industrialized nation where physical labor, manufacturing, and farming are shrinking areas for gainful employment. The next generation needs engineers and coders not millers and welders. We are already importing foreign workers because our education system is severely lacking in the first place. It's not so much illegal immigration that is stealing American jobs but legal immigration.

If we kill access to education we likely kill our future economy.

Yes, but it is a lazy electorate that lays that at the feet of the government. Benjamin Franklin has several things to say on this principle.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."

"Make yourselves sheep, and the wolves will eat you."

Also, one of the problems of modern education is it's emphasis on white collar professions. There is a shortage of people who work in the trades and have trade and entrepreneurial skills. The new currency is moving from specific knowledge to versatility. The one thing that a good education teaches, i.e. how to gather, process and employ resources in a productive fashion, is woefully lacking in most public education. These are skills that used to be handed down from father to son and mother to daughter. However, with the government increasingly replacing the parent, these skills have been lost to a large portion of the population in these United States.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 12 by bluethread]

Yes, but it is a lazy electorate that lays that at the feet of the government. Benjamin Franklin has several things to say on this principle.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."

"Make

I don't think ole B Franklin was talking about public education. The shortage of trade skills is not because people aren't skilled to do them or can't learn the skills it is because no one wants them.

Trade jobs are endangered anyways due to automation. Construction type jobs will still exist for a while but automation will eventually replace a lot of these jobs. Why have a human carpenter prone to making errors when a computerized system can churn the same product out faster quicker and at a higher quality for less money? What we will need are people who can build these systems code these systems and maintain them.
The only reason people will have trade jobs in 20 years will be for the artisional value.

I wil agree our education is woefully lacking in general though which compared to other industrialized nations we are so far behind. I don't think the answer though is to have parents teach their kids, unless you want an Amish styled economy....

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 12 by bluethread]

to gather, process and employ resources in a productive fashion, is woefully lacking in most public education. These are skills that used to be handed down from father to son and mother to daughter. However, with the government increasingly replacing the parent, these skills have been lost to a large portion of the population in these United States.

Considering, we have had public schools since the 19th century I don't think the correlation is positive in this case. I think a more pointed argument is because our education system is lacking a large portion of the population has not been able to adapt to a changing economic environment effectively leading for more families having both parents work full time just to make ends meet. Leaving less concentrated family rearing.

This seems to be more of an economic issue rather than a public education issue.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 12 by bluethread]

Yes, but it is a lazy electorate that lays that at the feet of the government. Benjamin Franklin has several things to say on this principle.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."

"Make

I don't think ole B Franklin was talking about public education. The shortage of trade skills is not because people aren't skilled to do them or can't learn the skills it is because no one wants them.

Yes, those were not specifically about education. However, they were about yielding ones power to government authorities.

Trade jobs are endangered anyways due to automation. Construction type jobs will still exist for a while but automation will eventually replace a lot of these jobs. Why have a human carpenter prone to making errors when a computerized system can churn the same product out faster quicker and at a higher quality for less money? What we will need are people who can build these systems code these systems and maintain them.
The only reason people will have trade jobs in 20 years will be for the artisional value.

That is a pipe dream, pardon the pun. In twenty years people will still urinate and defecate, along with many other sordid things. The metropolitan box "community" is just the failed vision of a socialist utopia. Every single case of automation I have run into has failed to some degree or other. Admittedly, there are the model situations, where someone has a lot of money to throw at a problem. However, there has always been a need for the person with the skills to jimmy rig. That has always been the prime market niche of these United States, to innovate and make things work. Government stifles innovation, buy replacing competitive stress with cronie capitalism. That is also true in education. Grade inflation has replaced competition, and egalitarianism has replaced hard work.

I wil agree our education is woefully lacking in general though which compared to other industrialized nations we are so far behind. I don't think the answer though is to have parents teach their kids, unless you want an Amish styled economy...

Such is the deprecating image of the family unit in the socialist model. Parents need not be Rhode's Scholars, especially in the information age. What is needed in the one on one connection in teaching the how-to's of learning. Admittedly, that has been lost in the last half century, in these United States. However, in Japan and Korea, where the family unit has been integrated into the production model, rather than exorcised out, parent based approach works. We see this in the success of the Asian immigrant communities, that, for the most part, have not sold integrated "public assistance" into their lifestyles.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 15 by bluethread]

Such is the deprecating image of the family unit in the socialist model. Parents need not be Rhode's Scholars, especially in the information age. What is needed in the one on one connection in teaching the how-to's of learning. Admittedly, that has been lost in the last half century, in these United States. However, in Japan and Korea, where the family unit has been integrated into the production model, rather than exorcised out, parent based approach works. We see this in the success of the Asian immigrant communities, that, for the most part, have not sold integrated "public assistance" into their lifestyles.

If you want to adopt the Japanese and Korean model for education I am all for it they have some of the most rigourace public education systems in the world...

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 15 by bluethread]

Such is the deprecating image of the family unit in the socialist model. Parents need not be Rhode's Scholars, especially in the information age. What is needed in the one on one connection in teaching the how-to's of learning. Admittedly, that has been lost in the last half century, in these United States. However, in Japan and Korea, where the family unit has been integrated into the production model, rather than exorcised out, parent based approach works. We see this in the success of the Asian immigrant communities, that, for the most part, have not sold integrated "public assistance" into their lifestyles.

If you want to adopt the Japanese and Korean model for education I am all for it they have some of the most rigourace public education systems in the world...

As you noted in post #14, there is more to this than just the educational system. The family is strongly reinforced in Asian societies, whereas in western societies, specifically in these United States, "social welfare" programs have increasingly undermined the family unit over the past century. Many in these United States do use two incomes as an excuse. However, even in these United States, Asian parents do take advantage of every opportunity, but they do not abrogate the responsibility for their children's education to the government. By the way, two incomes is hardly an excuse in many low income areas. It is primarily the lack of a father in the home.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 17 by bluethread]

The family is strongly reinforced in Asian societies, whereas in western societies, specifically in these United States, "social welfare" programs have increasingly undermined the family unit over the past century

I am not really for our current social programs we have in place, there are better alternatives. That being said specifically how do they undermine the family unit?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 17 by bluethread]

By the way, two incomes is hardly an excuse in many low income areas. It is primarily the lack of a father in the home.

Which is the fault of public education because??

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 17 by bluethread]

The family is strongly reinforced in Asian societies, whereas in western societies, specifically in these United States, "social welfare" programs have increasingly undermined the family unit over the past century

I am not really for our current social programs we have in place, there are better alternatives. That being said specifically how do they undermine the family unit?

First, they provide an alternative to sticking with it. Family, though a blessing, is not an easy thing. When one is assured an income and medical benefits, it is easy the "throw the bum out." Though there may be a few men who will use the government to replace a wife, it is more common, an the system is more friendly to the woman who uses the government to replace a husband.

Second, they discourage commitment in the first place. It is not uncommon for a couple to live together and not marry, so that they can get government benefits designed to bail out the "single" parent.

Third, parents can get away without caring about their children, because they count on the government to provide for them when they get older.

By the way, two incomes is hardly an excuse in many low income areas. It is primarily the lack of a father in the home.

Which is the fault of public education because??

Well, it is the failure of public education in those areas that is bringing this issue to the fore. Focusing on public education, rather than responsible parenting, as a solution, is to ignore the real problem.