CARNAL MAN HAVING A FREEWILL TO SAVE HIMSELF

[Benoni]

There are many doctrines out there that do not line up with scripture and the doctrine that carnal man can save himself is not scriptural and god's Word actually shows us to the contrary.

[2timothy316]

What scriptures are you speaking of?

[Benoni]

[Replying to post 2 by 2timothy316]

Here is one to start with:


How can carnal man chose Christ? It’s a spiritual experience to choose Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:
14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

[2timothy316]

I'm still not seeing exactly where you're going here.

You said, "There are many doctrines out there that do not line up with scripture and the doctrine that carnal man can save himself..."

Then post a scripture that doesn't deal with saving one's self but has to do with the fact that a person that only examines physical evidence will view spiritual evidence as foolish.

What doctrine are you speaking about in particular? I know of no 'Christian' doctrine that teaches a person can literally save themselves alone.

[Benoni]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

I see no reason to post something if people are not seeking truth so I have been holding back. My big point is no where is the word freewill is used in choosing salvation in scripture. So where does this doctrine of man having a freewill to save himself come from? I believe it is assumed but being assumed does not make it truth. There are two areas of scripture that relate to this area.

Man is a slave to sin, man is dead in trespasses and it is his nature to totally reject all things of God; man has no choice or freewill to choose his own salvation; this is a religious myth and not a scriptural act; if anything the Bible teaches it is God who draws; it is Jesus that saves not man’s carnal mind believing on by its own will.


The word freewill or choice are not found anywhere in the NT when it comes to someone freely choosing his own salvation. The word freewill is not even found in the Bible except for the Freewill Offering in the OT; which has nothing to do with salvation even as an example. God saves us by His grace, the and only then can carnal man have faith to believe in God and be saved. I also showed him that God caused the fall in


In John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek(drag) and I will add forces him: and I will raise him up at the last day. and John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me as you so wisely posted. The word draw is the Greek word from Strong’s 1670: helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

There are eight examples in the NT that shows this word draw means force; Peter drew his sword is one example; the disciples drew their net; the net did not choose or have a freewill neither did the sword.

Notice Ephesians 2: 1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

QUICK ."Quick means living and active so God has to make alive someone who is spiritually dead in trespasses and sin.

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

Notice the order, God must quicken us be we are dead in sins; then He saves us by grace; then and only then do we have faith and I will add once this has happen we had no choice or freewill.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

I see no reason to post something if people are not seeking truth so I have been holding back. My big point is no where is the word freewill is used in choosing salvation in scripture. So where does this doctrine of man having a freewill to save himself come from? I believe it is assumed but being assumed does not make it truth. There are two areas of scripture that relate to this area.

But aren't you assuming just because "no where is the word freewill is used in choosing salvation in scripture." there is no freewill?

While the word freewill is not used, the words 'free men' is used.

“Behave like free men, and never use your freedom as an excuse for wickedness.� (1 Peter 2:16)

The Bible is clear that a person can use their freedom to do good or to do bad. There is no need from the word 'freewill' or 'free choice'. The term 'use your freedom' covers what we need to know.

Man is a slave to sin, man is dead in trespasses and it is his nature to totally reject all things of God; man has no choice or freewill to choose his own salvation; this is a religious myth and not a scriptural act; if anything the Bible teaches it is God who draws; it is Jesus that saves not man’s carnal mind believing on by its own will.

It's true that a man can't choose himself to be saved. I know of no scripture that says this. However, a person can choose who they will follow and that could lead to salvation if they endure in that subjugation to the end.

The Bibles says, "Therefore, subject yourselves to God; but oppose the Devil, and he will flee from you. Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you indecisive ones." James 4:7, 8. Note who is to 'cleanse' their hands. We are to cleanse ourselves using God's direction.

Matt. 24:13 - “He who endures to the end will be saved.�

So a person does have some control over the gift of salvation in the way of accepting that gift. The way to accept it is through their actions of faith in doing what God's Son has directed them to do. Then sticking to those actions 'to the end'. A person does have the right to reject that gift.

[Benoni]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

I see no reason to post something if people are not seeking truth so I have been holding back. My big point is no where is the word freewill is used in choosing salvation in scripture. So where does this doctrine of man having a freewill to save himself come from? I believe it is assumed but being assumed does not make it truth. There are two areas of scripture that relate to this area.

But aren't you assuming just because "no where is the word freewill is used in choosing salvation in scripture." there is no freewill?

While the word freewill is not used, the words 'free men' is used.

“Behave like free men, and never use your freedom as an excuse for wickedness.� (1 Peter 2:16)

The Bible is clear that a person can use their freedom to do good or to do bad. There is no need from the word 'freewill' or 'free choice'. The term 'use your freedom' covers what we need to know.

Man is a slave to sin, man is dead in trespasses and it is his nature to totally reject all things of God; man has no choice or freewill to choose his own salvation; this is a religious myth and not a scriptural act; if anything the Bible teaches it is God who draws; it is Jesus that saves not man’s carnal mind believing on by its own will.

It's true that a man can't choose himself to be saved. I know of no scripture that says this. However, a person can choose who they will follow and that could lead to salvation if they endure in that subjugation to the end.

The Bibles says, "Therefore, subject yourselves to God; but oppose the Devil, and he will flee from you. Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you indecisive ones." James 4:7, 8. Note who is to 'cleanse' their hands. We are to cleanse ourselves using God's direction.

Matt. 24:13 - “He who endures to the end will be saved.�

So a person does have some control over the gift of salvation in the way of accepting that gift. The way to accept it is through their actions of faith in doing what God's Son has directed them to do. Then sticking to those actions 'to the end'. A person does have the right to reject that gift.

No a person has no choice in salvation. Look at the verse I post John 6:44 NO ONE comes to the Father unless the father DRAWS/Drags/Forces him How can you freely choose if you are being dragged. Tie a rope to a car and then to your self and have someone drag you away what choice is that. There are many verse that speak of salvation to those who already believe as you posted. But do they address how we are saved? Eph 2 shows us in context how we are saved the who 8 verses in context. Salvation comes from God not carnal man choosing God. Its called grace.

[2timothy316]

No a person has no choice in salvation.

That is not entirely true. A person can reject. By not listening to God.

Look at the verse I post John 6:44 NO ONE comes to the Father unless the father DRAWS/Drags/Forces him How can you freely choose if you are being dragged.
That is not what the scripture says though.

It continues there in John. "It says in the prophets ‘and they shall all be taught of God’; everyone who has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me;"

There are those that do not hear are not drawn in. To listen is a choice. Hearing from the Father drags a person in. You like words to show up in scripture, well what that doesn't show up in your quoted scripture is 'forced'.

The word is 'helkó' and it means, 'I drag, draw, pull, persuade'. It doesn't mean force.
http://biblehub.com/greek/1670.htm

You seem to be thinking of the word 'harpazó' which means, 'I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery'.
http://biblehub.com/greek/726.htm

Or maybe 'biazó' which means, 'I use force, violence, suffer violence'.
http://biblehub.com/greek/971.htm

Tie a rope to a car and then to your self and have someone drag you away what choice is that.

I wouldn't try that with anyone. That might land you in jail. What you're describing is kidnapping by force and God does no such thing. Jesus even said, “No, rather, happy are those hearing the word of God and keeping it!� Luke 11:28. Note we have 'hearing' the word of God again. Only those keeping it are draw or dragged in. So the Bible doesn't really support this 'snatch and grab' doctrine.

There are many verse that speak of salvation to those who already believe as you posted. But do they address how we are saved? Eph 2 shows us in context how we are saved the who 8 verses in context. Salvation comes from God not carnal man choosing God. Its called grace.

Yet Jesus said to choose the 'narrow gate' because it leads to life. Matthew 7:13, 14. Why would he say that if it didn't matter? Does it really not matter what gate we choose? Did Jesus lie? Why does the Bible show the results one thing verses another?

While I do accept that it is still Jehovah God that does the saving, we have to want to be saved. We have to listen and obey. "Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock." Matthew 7:24.

[Benoni]

Of course he can reject but if God called him he is coming. How do know if someone is truly called? Look at Saul he tried to reject. God knocked him off his horse and blinded him. If God drags you how can you reject? Many are called few are chosen. But God is not calling the whole world now.


1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:
If God does not call you, you cannot come.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time. (Ray Prinzing)

[Benoni]

What do you think the word drag means? If that is not forced. I think Paul was dragged/forced. he sure did not want to come