What is 'the meaning of life'?

[Zzyzx]

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The term 'meaning of life' (or its offset, 'meaningless life') frequently appear(s) in these debates.

What, EXACTLY, do you mean when you use the term?

What, exactly, causes life to have 'meaning' (or to lack meaning)?

[bjs]

Sorry mate, but in the definition for 'meaning' that you provided, nowhere does it say anything about it having to be intentionally designed. I would class this thought process of yours as a non sequitur; what you concluded did not flow from your earlier premises.

The definition for “meaning� I provided, which is taken from Webster’s, is: the end, purpose, or significance of something.

Let’s define the word purpose. As a noun it’s definition is: the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

As a verb the definition of purpose is: have as one's intention or objective.

Notice that in both cases the definition relies on intentional design. Only an intelligent will can have a reason or an objective. A stone cannot have either of those.

Only an intelligence, working with a reason or an objective, can give something meaning. If life exists by chance (was not designed) then by definition it does not have a meaning.

My sisters have significance to me, yet I obviously had no involvement in their being conceived and born. Neither of my parents designed the babies while they were still in the womb; sure, intercourse happened, but no designing. I'm also pretty sure neither of my parents said "Our plan is to have girls who will grow up to be {insert career here}"

Technically, if we are using the words correctly it is your relationship with your sisters that has significance. If that relationship did not exist (if they were not your sisters) then they would not have that significance. You can create, or at least sustain, a relationship and thereby give it meaning. As you rightly point out, people cannot design life, so we cannot give it meaning.

Parents can love, value, and care for their children. That does not give life itself meaning.

[Replying to post 5 by bjs]

If it was not designed with a purpose then it has no meaning.

Work with me here on this please. Treat this as a hypothetical. Imagine you live in a world, identical to the one you live in now, but where life was NOT designed, where there is 'in fact' no god.
Does life lose all meaning? Can life have meaning at all, in that world? Is it impossible for a life form (yourself) to give your own life meaning (and meaning to the lives of others)?

In the scenario you have described life would not have any meaning. It might be enjoyable. I might value it personally. But I would still have to recognize it as meaningless.

Your thought process is strange in my eyes. Here's how mine works. I go outside, and according to my own point of view, nature is not designed. If I see a bunch of sticks, I think of them as being the result of nature, with no grand plan set in place by an invisible sky daddy. I don't see them as having an inherent meaning in them. However, it is possible for me to take those sticks and give them meaning and purpose, to do something with them. Perhaps I fashion a crude fishing rod, or a bow, or something.

From what I understand of what you write, you seem to be suggesting that I can't do that, since the sticks aren't designed in the first place by an all knowing deity.

As you point out from a non-theistic point of view the sticks, just like everything else, have no meaning. You could fashion them into a fishing rod, and since you fashioned that rod with a purpose it would have meaning.

Similarly, you might develop a meaningful relationship with people, or do other actions that you consider meaningful. That would not mean that life itself has any meaning.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 11 by bjs]

The definition for “meaning� I provided, which is taken from Webster’s, is: the end, purpose, or significance of something.

Let’s define the word purpose. As a noun it’s definition is: the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

As a verb the definition of purpose is: have as one's intention or objective.

Notice that in both cases the definition relies on intentional design. Only an intelligent will can have a reason or an objective. A stone cannot have either of those.

Only an intelligence, working with a reason or an objective, can give something meaning. If life exists by chance (was not designed) then by definition it does not have a meaning.

You give us the definition of meaning, which gives us three words we can talk about, only for you to focus in or even talk at all about one of them. Meaning: end, purpose or significance. Why is it you only talked about purpose?

Technically, if we are using the words correctly it is your relationship with your sisters that has significance.

If we're being technical, then what I said applies to the word meaning. You just agreed with me when I said that my relationship with my sisters (i.e. persons not formed by me in any way, shape or capacity) has significance. Significance is one of the words in the definition of meaning.

If that relationship did not exist (if they were not your sisters) then they would not have that significance. You create, or at least sustain, a relationship and thereby give it meaning. As you rightly point out, people cannot design life, so we cannot give it meaning.

This reads to me like a contradiction. I have a relationship with the girls who are my sisters, you agree with me on this...that relationship has significance to me, you agree with me on this...yet even though significance is part of the definition of meaning, you somehow say that since I did not (and cannot have) designed my sister's lives, I cannot give their lives meaning?

In the scenario you have described life would not have any meaning. It might be enjoyable. I might value it personally. But I would still have to recognize it as meaningless.

Why is it you would value that world and that life as being meaningless? Let's say in that world you set a goal for yourself...let's say it's to learn as much as you can about nuclear physics and then teach at Harvard (to pick something at random).
How is that a meaningless life?
You've just described a world (or rather I have, and you agreed with me) where you attach significance to your life, and remember...significance is one of the words in the definition of meaning that you yourself provided.

As you point out from a non-theistic point of view the sticks, just like everything else, have no meaning. You could fashion them into a fishing rod, and since you fashioned that rod with a purpose it would have meaning.

So I can fashion some sticks that weren't designed by a deity into a tool and imbue them with meaning...but you can't do the same with yourself, for your own life?

Similarly, you might develop a meaningful relationship with people, or do other actions that you consider meaningful. That would not mean that life itself has any meaning.

What if in the hypothetical world where there is no god, you lived as you do now, believing in/following/worshipping what you call God? Would your actions give meaning to this quote unquote relationship? Does God then have any real meaning?

[Zzyzx]

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There appears to be a breakdown in communication.

Those who consider their life meaningless unless their God gave it meaning look at life and 'meaning' differently than those who consider their life meaningful without influence from gods.

Perhaps it is understandable that Religionists cling fervently to 'life meaning comes from god' -- they may fear that if they depart from that position their life will not have meaning. If / when they do eventually reject religion there may be an uncomfortable adjustment period learning to derive value from real life rather than proposed supernatural sources.

Many who debate here as Non-Theists have experience with the attitude "Life is given meaning only by God' in their 'past lives' as Theists. They know from more recent experience that their life has meaning (perhaps more meaning) WITHOUT belief in gods.

Some of us were never convinced / indoctrinated to accept 'meaning in / of life comes from god' and are quite well aware that a full, rich, meaningful, purposeful, and successful life without ever relying upon 'gods (as some Theists evidently cannot comprehend).

[ttruscott]

I believe there is no meaning. No great design; no morality. No reason.

This makes life extremely valuable. It is an empty slate and you are a painter; designing and crafting the portrait that you wish to have represent you in a single slot of a gallery of pictures so vast that you will inevitably be forgotten.

With each stroke of the brush you not only paint your piece; but affect the portraits of others. Every decision and action is yours to do with it as you wish. And in turn others to do to your painting as they wish.

It means that every good action you take is and should be attributed to you. Your have reasoned; you have decided; you have chosen. There is no divine being waving a finger and demanding 'you must!' and that makes it all the more profound. That a single person in this life has chosen of their own will to do good for no other reason than their own choice. Perhaps for the benefit of ones self; self gratitude. The return of a favour. The love and affection of others. But it is you - and you alone.

And once your painting has been finished; the lights that display it are snuffed out. And you become once again a blank canvas in the darkness of eternity. And now you can rest; forever.

Ah existentialism...the alchemy that turns no meaning into meaning by force of will or die by suicide instead...same, same.

Christians refer to Solomon:
Ecclesiastes 1:1The words of the Teacher, a son of David, king in Jerusalem:
2 “Meaningless! Meaningless!�
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.�

and which ends
12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

[Demented_Literature]

[Replying to post 14 by ttruscott]

Yes, within the bounds of what I posted it is. But my actual thoughts on the matter are a little different. See I personally believe life is just a chemical reaction. This reaction occurs on enormous grounds. If I might use the term 'butterfly effect' here but to a slightly lesser degree.

Humans are born as an empty slate to have the actions and explanations of those around them imprint emotion and reason. From the very point you begin to take in data from the external world you are collaborating that data with your internal hormonal chemical response.

From here on anything you do is simply the chemical reaction that occurs from the internal and external sources of information being gathered. Free will is an illusion; if you could calculate enough of the instances far enough into the future you could tell what would occur to someone and how they would react. The world is an enormous reaction that quantifies enough data that we as people can't yet compile to predetermine someones actions.

We do to some degree; police profiling; psychology; statistical norm response. But nothing to the extent that would indefinitely identify someones actions and prove the absence of free will without a doubt.

So while I give you existentialism; my personal beliefs are that we are one giant mathematical equation that hasn't been solved yet because the variables are too vast to comprehend currently.

My first post was a little more poetic; I thought it was fitting.

[1213]

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The term 'meaning of life' (or its offset, 'meaningless life') frequently appear(s) in these debates.

What, EXACTLY, do you mean when you use the term?

What, exactly, causes life to have 'meaning' (or to lack meaning)?

I mean with it purpose of life. And I think everyone is free to decide what the purpose of his life is. And I believe greatest purpose is love.

[OnceConvinced]

For life to have meaning it must be intentionally designed with a purpose. To put it simply, only God can give meaning to life.

Clearly what you are saying can't possibly be true. If it's only God, then how can I as an atheist feel that I have so much meaning to my life? Why would God give me, a non-believer so much purpose and meaning?

I've been on both sides of the fence. I have been an adamant believer in god who believed that God gave me purpose and meaning. Now I do not believe in God. Yet I still have much the same meaning and purpose as I did as a Christian. It's just that now none of it revolves around what I believe a god wants for me and it does not involve anything to do with churches or ministries.

As far as I can see, the only difference between a believer in God and a non-believer is that the believer believes he has God giving him that meaning and purpose, while the atheist doesn't.

The fact that I have so much meaning and purpose in my life as an atheist is major evidence that no gods are needed for such a thing.

[OnceConvinced]

Those who consider their life meaningless unless their God gave it meaning look at life and 'meaning' differently than those who consider their life meaningful without influence from gods.

As a Christian I bought into the whole con job that there was no meaning or purpose in life without god. Although I'd never been in a situation where I didn't believe in God. I was brought up believing in God from the word go.

Perhaps it is understandable that Religionists cling fervently to 'life meaning comes from god' -- they may fear that if they depart from that position their life will not have meaning. If / when they do eventually reject religion there may be an uncomfortable adjustment period learning to derive value from real life rather than proposed supernatural sources.

Funnily enough, even though I struggled big time with my loss of faith, never once did I feel that I had a lack of purpose or meaning in my life. In fact the purposes and meaning remained with me even as I went from Christian to Deist, to agnostic to atheist. It never left! The only difference was that I no longer assigned God as the originator of my purpose and meaning. The only purposes I lost were the ones that revolved around my ministry and work within the church. However there were way more purposes that involved things outside of church and my ministry which I never lost.

Many who debate here as Non-Theists have experience with the attitude "Life is given meaning only by God' in their 'past lives' as Theists. They know from more recent experience that their life has meaning (perhaps more meaning) WITHOUT belief in gods.

Indeed. It saddens me that people feel their life was so miserable and lacking in purpose that they felt they needed a god to improve their situation. I have to wonder just how many Christians felt their life lacked purpose and meaning before they became Christians. Probably not that many.

Some of us were never convinced / indoctrinated to accept 'meaning in / of life comes from god' and are quite well aware that a full, rich, meaningful, purposeful, and successful life without ever relying upon 'gods (as some Theists evidently cannot comprehend).

I'm guessing there are many God believers here who take this with a grain of salt and think that you are only kidding yourself. That deep down you feel empty and without purpose. Indeed they cannot comprehend that one can have purpose and meaning without gods attached.

The thing is even those of other religions who follow "false gods" claim to have purpose and meaning in their life. Does that mean that imaginary gods can give purpose and meaning too? Or that demons/false gods can give purpose and meaning to people? It must surely be the case!

[Zzyzx]

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Indeed. It saddens me that people feel their life was so miserable and lacking in purpose that they felt they needed a god to improve their situation. I have to wonder just how many Christians felt their life lacked purpose and meaning before they became Christians. Probably not that many.

That is an important point.

It appears as though the vast majority of Christians have been Christians since childhood -- and therefore did not experience life without a presupposition of 'meaning and purpose from god'.

How do they know so much about 'without meaning and purpose from god'? They have been TOLD that human life has no meaning or purpose without God. They BELIEVE that without verifying that it is true (belief without verification is de rigueur in 'faith'). They then project this false notion onto others.

Is that a false notion? If it was not false, all Non-Christian lives would be meaningless and purposeless.

Evidently, however, some people (perhaps many) NEED a belief in gods to think their life has meaning and purpose. Unfortunately they often seem to think (or claim) that everyone shares that affliction.

[ttruscott]

For life to have meaning it must be intentionally designed with a purpose. To put it simply, only God can give meaning to life.

Clearly what you are saying can't possibly be true. If it's only God, then how can I as an atheist feel that I have so much meaning to my life? Why would God give me, a non-believer so much purpose and meaning?

I've been on both sides of the fence. I have been an adamant believer in god who believed that God gave me purpose and meaning. Now I do not believe in God. Yet I still have much the same meaning and purpose as I did as a Christian. It's just that now none of it revolves around what I believe a god wants for me and it does not involve anything to do with churches or ministries.

As far as I can see, the only difference between a believer in God and a non-believer is that the believer believes he has God giving him that meaning and purpose, while the atheist doesn't.

The fact that I have so much meaning and purpose in my life as an atheist is major evidence that no gods are needed for such a thing.

On a secular level I agree. I've been over the fence and under the hedgerow myself. I went thru an existential phase in college where I had to create my own meaning for my life and I failed. I lived a meaningless (hedonistic) life for too long with suicide a constant option. Being smitten by GOD put me on my feet and gave me a real place in life with a purpose. <shrug>