Book of Revelation

[Benoni]

Here is my point. If it the Book of Revelation is literal; line and verse please.

John was in spirit on the Lord ’s Day; He was looking a literal church; but a spiritual church.

Revelations 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass (not 2000 years); and he sent and signified (signs and symbols) it by his angel (messenger) unto his servant John:

John was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day; this makes the Revelation a spiritual book; not literal, not carnal, not prophetic literal. Revelation or the unveiling of Jesus Christ; it is the most spiritual Book in all the Bible; and I always put Genesis in second place. It is a book full of hidden spiritual symbolisms and for those who have the spiritual eyes or ears to see or hear it. No where does it say John was being literal in any sense.




This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified� or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible. Where do you find these signs and symbols; all thought the Bible; written yes by the hands of deep spiritual men from many ages.

You speak over 800 OT references; great point. As natural men how can we understand what God is truly saying with His spiritual symbolism but by natural literal examples written in the very Word we are suppose to believe in? What a better place to open up this spiritual hidden book but by God’s Word w

[Divine Insight]

I am not speaking of the High priest in the Jewish religion I am speaking of MT Zion High Priest which is in the Book of Revelation as well as the Tabernacle of David in Acts 15. Do you even know what Mt Zion is symbolic of or what the Tabernacle of David is all about?

Why would I bother looking into that?

Jesus was clearly referring to the Jewish scribes and Pharisees, not any high priests of Mt Zion.

Why would you run off looking for possible ways to condemn yourself beyond what Jesus taught?

[Benoni]

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.



So many of God’s people cannot see what is beyond the letter that killeth; such a strong word “killeth� given to describe what happens when you use you carnalize, literalize your understanding when interpreting scripture. So much doom and gloom in Traditional Christianity;

Are we destroying, slaying, and killing God’s Word when we refuse to allow God’s Spirit to give it life. Is not the spirit of truth with in us; but is that what we are following when all we see is the negative. God’s Spirit is in all of us, we have gone way to accustom to hearing man; and not The Spirit of truth with in.

Killeth: NT:615 apokteino (ap-ok-ti'-no); from NT:575 and kteino (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy:

2 Corinthians 3:1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory

Mt Zion is in both the NT and the OT. But why would God pour out His spirit of Truth if it was of no use? Notice the phase "giveth life" in the above passage. What does this mean to give life to a bible verse? Does not the verse have life? Well it does but if you use your religious mind which is bias to some dead religious system the life comes from the traditions of man and not the Spirit. You see God's Spirit is within us and is very capable of in parting that life to you singular not plural as we would get from the teachings of man and his dogma.

Mt Zion in the OT was a home of King David a place where the ark of God (glory of God) was brought in which King David was influenced by in his daily life. Just like God's Spirit is in our Mt Zion David had God's glory in His Mt Zion. But according to the Law of Moses or the Religious realm today it does not belong there. The ark/truth or glory belongs to the scholars or in the OT the Priest and to see the ark of God out side the temple or out side the religious system is just not right for it belongs in the physical Holy of Holies. But it was moved in the OT to Zion and it is again moved within our Spirit to allow God to show us His glory in His Word as well as in our lives.

[Benoni]

In the Old order before Mt Zion the priest was named Ichabod which means the glory had departed. If you read how the ark was taken to the enemies camp because the glory had departed. Same with the religious system the glory has departed.

Mount Zion or The Tabernacle of David; here was a small tent where the Ark of God was brought to Mount Zion/Sion; how many times is this name mentioned in the NT. Zion was mentioned 152 times in OT; where Sion was mention 7 times in NT; sure this was David’s home Solomon etc; but is also a symbolism.

Zion was the natural home of King David who is a type of Christ in Natural Jerusalem. Mt Zion was the head of natural Kingdom; just as Spiritual Mt Zion is the Spiritual high place of Christ in the book of Revelation. David did not need to go to a priest; let alone a high priest to visit the Ark (or the glory of God) it was in a tent or tabernacle on his back porch at Mt Zion. This is a beautiful type which tells us myriads of what God is tying to tell us in the Spirit of the Word.

David was king; He was God’s anointed King; not like Saul who was also anointed by God; but chosen by the people; like many ministries in the church (little c) realm today. David was one of those special people God called, anointed and was one after God’s own heart. David lived in Jerusalem and Mount Zion (Sion); That is where the earthly anointed King lived and all His court; what a wonderful type of the ruler ship of the spiritual Mount Zion.

When David brought the Ark back to Mount Zion he wore an linen ephod, (In other word’s a priestly garment) David also offered burnt offerings to God as the High priest would on the Feast of Tabernacles. There was no high Priest; once a year at the Feast of Atonement at Zion; but David was an example of both King and Priest in that the Ark was not at Shiloh but Zion. No outer court, no holy place, no Levitical order. It is no wonder the Bible is full of pages written by David because of the influence of God’s Ark at Zion.

2 Samuel 6:
14And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
17And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD

Point being God is going to reestablish the Tabernacle of David in a called out people to become kings and priest unto God for the remainder of God’s people he has not called.

[Divine Insight]

But why would God pour out His spirit of Truth if it was of no use?

Even in theology we must take into consideration that there actually may be no God behind these myths which then makes your above question meaningless.

David also offered burnt offerings to God as the High priest would on the Feast of Tabernacles.

Why would an omnipotent God be appeased by a mere human making burnt offerings to God?

This is an indication already that what we're actually talking about here are ancient superstitions where these people believed they needed to appease the Gods in order to gain their favor.

And besides, if the mark of a high priest is that they make burnt offerings to God then there would be no need for any high priests after Jesus anyway, because Jesus was supposed to be God's own sacrificial lamb offered up to himself to appease himself.

So with Christianity the idea of continuing to make burnt offerings wouldn't make any sense anyway. So a high priest in Christianity today would just sit back and allow God to appease himself in whatever way he sees fit. To try to make an offering to the the God of Christianity today would be an insult to God who had already supposedly made the greatest appeasement to himself on the behalf of humans already.

So in Christianity there is no longer any need for any high priests.

[Benoni]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

You just do not see it. The OT conceal Christ the NT reveals Christ. God uses the OT types and shadows to reveal his deep purposes in the NT. You call your self Devine insight and that is what is happening here. Burnt offering of the OT is God's spiritual fire in the NT just like the Holy of holies is our Spiritual relationship with God. The whole Mosaic temple with all its physical features all point to the Temple with in. here is an example of one piece of furniture and there are plenty more examples beside this one.


1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

NT:5178 a

tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10 as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture).


Let me start with the Temple of God. The OT types with the temple/tabernacle of God with each temple showing us the true temple the temple of God with in us; which is our holy of holies.

The Children of Israel started out with the Tabernacle in the wilderness; next came the Tabernacle in of David. After that came Solomon's temple and then there was Herod’s Temple. All of these pointing to a type and shallow of things to come in the realm of the spirit and the true temple not built by hands which is in us.

The Feast of Tabernacle by George Warnock is a great place to start.

Every piece of furniture, every step, every room, curtain etc is a for shallow or example for those who have ears to hear.

http://georgewarnock.com/feast-main.html

Lets look at the candlestick in the Book of Revelation:

The lampstand was a piece of furniture found in the Holy place in the temple. It was made from beaten gold. Gold that was beaten to show us the process of divine life is thought trials and tribulations and made by the masters hands. God is one but this oil lamp had seven staffs attached to one staff symbolic of the seven spirits of God found in Is. 11:2.

Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Every day the priest would have to immerse the lamp stand in oil; oil symbolic of the anointing and light the fire (fire symbolic of God's purifying fire) of the lamp.

Interesting fact is there were three lights in the temple.

One was the outer court where the light of the sun was the only light; but when darkness fell there was no light. Showing us a place of BOTH light in darkness in the outer court of our understanding in our temple.

Of course had the lamp stand which gave us some light during darkness in the Holy Place which I just mentioned above..

Last of all was the Holy of holies. Here there was no light from the sun or the lamp stand. Here only God's glory was the light of the temple.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

I see it very symbolic but symbolism and metaphors that are spiritual in nature, God hides His deep truths from the religious and the carnal and reveals them to babes.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

example: NT:5178 a

tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture).



God speaks thought His Word in many hidden and ways the below verse speaks of parable; but I will also add spiritual or scriptural numbers, mysteries (Gk) Sacred secrets, used over 20 times in NT) patterns, types, different languages, even deceptions to hide His word from the religious, the , wise, the carnal; and reveal it to babes. A babe is not the same as someone who can handle the milk of the word, anyone can handle milk; but a babe is like my small grandchildren when I speak to them; they trust everything I say, they have ears to hear.

I will add I always love the symbolism of the manchild in Revelation; man/masculine speaks of spirit, as well as mature because a man is a full grown mature person; but this man has that child perception; which most people lose as they grow and mature,

Matthew 13 :13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

I agree, and, as I had inferred, Revelation is mostly symbolic, revealing to those who, like babes, are not self-possessed, condescending, overly critical, and who are humble and willing to learn. The ones described as self-possessed, etc., do not recognize the ring of truth where it is sounding loudly and are not willing to bend when the spirit of truth confronts them.

Revelation is symbolic, yet people continue to try to explain it in absolutely literal ways! Such as the New Jerusalem literally coming down out of heaven and God actually living on the earth! Why is that literal, but the "locusts" of chapter 9 (who looked like horses with faces like men with gold crowns and tails like scorpions, and with iron breastplates...) are NOT? I submit that the "coming down out of heaven" is symbolic as well. There is no reason to think that God would ever be able to live on one tiny speck of a planet in this vast universe that He created! (I Kings 8:27) God created us with the ability to REASON, and there is no harm in using that ability.


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[Benoni]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Amen. I mean The book of revelation speak of dragons. Ray Prinzing on the web wrote a wonderful book called "Revelation a Positive Book" that is really good reading.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

You are so off base with this an obviously you think a deep spiritual message anyone can figure it out well if that is the case then there is no mystery. But spiritual messages are hidden deep mysteries (Gk) sacred secret). By the way it is a very coherent message to those who have spiritual ears to hear, But a very incoherent message to those who do not. I am posting this to those who have ears and there are plenty of us but perhaps there are none here. Tell me what spiritual is to start with and I will begin with spiritual baby steps seeing you are so curious. John was in Spirit on the Lord's day that is how the book begins and like all good books they start off with the meat of the message.

The thousand years U believe was mentioned above as if this has something to do with carnal man’s understanding of time to limit what God is truly doing to their understanding. The thousand years of God cannot be measured by human carnal understanding of time; but is symbolic and spiritual; that is how The Book of Revelation's should be interpreted.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Let’s look at some interesting points about the Book of Revelation I mentioned fire in another post. God’s fire is not physical fire the type we roast hot dogs of people in the Lake of Fire. God’s fire is spiritual and the spiritual meaning of fire is hidden in the Bible.

Even though the judgements of God will be against the evil works that man has done, those judgements will still result in man's salvation. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
"God is spirit - that is His substance. God is love that is His nature. God is also light and fire - they are His manifestations. We speak of fiery trials, HE IS IN EVERY ONE OF THEM. May we go even farther? He is the source of the fire in our fiery trial, HE' is the fire thereof.
You say that God's hand is resting upon you - you say that He has filled with His Spirit and His anointing is upon your life, guiding you into all truth. Then don't be amazed at the fiery testing that is yours also, for with every advancing step into new truth, there needs to be a purging out of error and past traditions, sin and shame; which are contrary to pure truth. The fire to burn out the dross is the Holy Spirit God has placed within, GOD is fire.
"Kenneth Wuest, in his translation, calls the fiery trial 'the smelting process.' A fiery ordeal, a smelting process - why? because it will both purify us, as well as reveal what degree of quality has been attained within.

I don't believe that God is trying people with His fire. James says "let no man say that he is being tried by God, for with evil things God cannot be tried nor does He himself try anyone." (James 1:13) His "fire" comes upon the wicked, who He will eradicate in His due time.

Perhaps there needs to be "a purging out of error," but God does not bring the hardship upon us. He ALLOWS it to happen for our own spiritual maturation process, but Satan is the source of all the evil that falls upon us. God's "fire" will fall on the wicked, and it is not a good thing for them. The "smelting process" is the Devil's schemes. God says He will help us to endure. (Ephesians 6:11; see also verses 12-18.) Would a man press his child's hand into a hot fry-pan and then immediately say, "Here, son, is some cool ointment to relieve your agony"? I hardly think so. The agony comes from Satan. The refreshment comes from God.

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[onewithhim]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

Show me in scripture where carnal man has a freewill or choice? Than I will show you where it is not there and the Bible teaches to the contrary. What you are missing is yes there is a broad way to Christ though religion. But the narrow way is the spiritual way for those who have ears to hear.

The Scriptures are full of God giving mankind a CHOICE. If it was any other way, a man would not be responsible for his errors. If God did not give humans free will, He would be guilty of a great SHAM...He would be guilty of cruelly playing with His creations, offering them something that they could never attain.

It is plain to see here that man has always had a choice (I insert comments where I want to explain, rather than waiting to the end to explain):

(1) "The LORD God commanded the man, saying, 'From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil [meaning the tree concerning which an act of thievery would indicate that man wanted to make up his OWN definitions as to what is good and what is evil] you shall not eat, for in the day [to God even a thousand years is as one day (2 Peter 3:8)] that you eat from it you will surely die.'" (Genesis 2:16,17, NASB)

Clearly God gave man a CHOICE. Leave that one tree alone or die. If Adam did not have a true choice, why would God have offered him the choice? It was Adam's decision to take the fruit, thus exerting his own ability to take onto himself the consequences of that choice. If that was not the case, God was a fiend for telling Adam he had a choice when he really did not. There is no sense at all in thinking that God had planned for Adam to fail. Why would that be? If so, it could only be that God is sadistic and evil. Those of us who believe that God is NOT those things feel that we realize that God gave Adam a true CHOICE.

(2) "They [mankind] have acted corruptly toward Him, they are not His children, the defect is their own; they are a perverse and crooked generation." (Deuteronomy 32:5) If mankind did not have a choice and were in line for destruction no matter what they did, why would they be called "perverse" and "defective"? They would just have been following through with the fore-ordained script which God had already planned out. That's just plain evil. (God is not evil.)

(3) "See, I am setting before you [the nation of Israel, as well as mankind today] a blessing and a curse: the blessing, IF you listen to the commandments of the LORD your God, which I am commanding you today; and the curse, IF you do NOT listen to the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way which I am commanding you today, by following other gods which you have not known." (Deut.11:26-28, NASB) God is giving humans a CHOICE. It is further borne out in another chapter of Deuteronomy:

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So CHOOSE life in order that you may live..." (Deut. 30:19, NASB)


Wouldn't you agree that these handful of Scriptures indicate clearly that God gave man a choice? He does so still today.


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[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 12 by Benoni]

I also see "hell" as a religious lie. The Bible does not teach that people will roast in a fire forever. The true Bible "hell" is the common GRAVE of mankind which will be done away with (as will DEATH), as is promised at Revelation 20:14. (The hurling of death and hell into the lake of fire is yet one more of those symbolic scriptures we have been discussing; death can't be LITERALLY thrown....neither can hell.)

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